Magic versus Chrome, Adept trumps Cyber? Options

[Doc Chase]

Go over there and explain what the Smoking Mirror is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But it's also a good idea. Settle it in the ring.

[Simon Kerimov]

Go over there and explain what the Smoking Mirror is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But it's also a good idea. Settle it in the ring.

Done, I linked to wikipedia.

For the rest of you: Sangre y Acero, we need the crowd to give a thumbs up or down, so come and throw in your two cents worth.

[Johnny B. Good]

The problem isn't with the 'Ware, it's with the inability of mundanes to cope with magic at all.

I agree with this statement. As a member of an (almost) all-mundane team I like the things presented in the SCIprotect thread, and have been thinking of writing up some similar gear. If anybody is interested in some mundane solutions to magical mishaps, please let me know. I'd like to write some things up, but only if there's enough interest and other people might use the ideas.

That being said, adepts vs. cybermonsters is an issue of specialist vs. generalist. Adepts are stupidly good dicepool stackers, but it's hard to make them good at more than a couple of things. They are easily the best at what they do, but not terribly great at other things because of the limitations of adept powers.

There are a few neat things that adept powers can do that 'ware can't, such as running on treetops and up walls. However, if you look at abilities exculsive to cyber/bioware (Drone hand, ultrawideband, smuggling compartments, implanted guns), 'ware tends to be a lot more useful. As far as abilities shared by 'ware and adept powers, cyber and bioware not only tend to be cheaper, but you can also cram more in you.

So it's dicepools vs. diversity.

[Doc Byte]

Maybe you didn't really build him right.

Yup too many superfluous knowledge skills, I guess.

Finally got that damn upload working. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[DireRadiant]

The ring is where everyone shadowruns.

[Draco18s]

Sangre y Acero.

Ok, just because Grok doesn't have all his qualities listed, how'd he get Dual Natured, Claws, and Low Light vision? (Especially the dual natured part). As I don't see him being either a mage, adept, drake, or shifter.

[Dakka Dakka]

He's a ghoul, but with all the cyber he should have lost that.

[Doc Chase]

Ok, just because Grok doesn't have all his qualities listed, how'd he get Dual Natured, Claws, and Low Light vision? (Especially the dual natured part). As I don't see him being either a mage, adept, drake, or shifter.

He's a ghoul. Or was, once the pixie's done with him.

[sabs]

Yup too many superfluous knowledge skills, I guess.

Finally got that damn upload working. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

That's a very nice well rounded character (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

but it's not a min-max monstrosity that COULD be built with the same amount of karma and cash

[Draco18s]

He's a ghoul, but with all the cyber he should have lost that.

Yes, its unclear if he bought up his magic high enough to survive the essence loss.

[Yerameyahu]

I thought the consensus was that ghouls *want* to lose Dual-Natured, because it's (apparently) a huge drawback? You keep the (worthless) claws either way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Rand]

<snip> I personally think all magically active types should have sensitive system that also applies to gene/bioware as a point free disadvantage that comes along with all the awesome that is awakened.<snip>

I did this - only for cyber though, they still could take sensitive system for bioware though.

And I would not mind taking on a dice pool penalty for actions in VR.

That's an idea. Something to think about.

But the adept vs cyber thing really is really about long term growth vs immediate gratification. Personally, I like the long term growth concept (probably why I liked playing jedi in Star Wars (d6 version, of course), also) but with the street sammie you could start with some very awesome abilities and have your 'gowth' be in increasing skills at first - which is generally easier and faster than initiating and increasing a magic rating.

[TheMidnightHobo]

I agree with this statement. As a member of an (almost) all-mundane team I like the things presented in the SCIprotect thread, and have been thinking of writing up some similar gear. If anybody is interested in some mundane solutions to magical mishaps, please let me know. I'd like to write some things up, but only if there's enough interest and other people might use the ideas.

Doooo itttt.

As Johnny well knows, I'm in favor of mundane anti-magic as well. Though my 5 Willpower Fomori is able to shrug off many magical attacks, his more squishy friends tend to not fair so well... Some of the stuff in the SCIprotect thread was exactly what SHOULD have been in the core book to begin with. If you can't cure the disease (tech that can stop the spell from happening in the first place), treat the symptoms (tech that works to counteract the known physiological consequences of the spell). It's kind of ridiculous that magic has been around so long and, according to the books, no one has done anything like this before.

[Simon Kerimov]

Stats/Max--Karma=Total
BOD: 11/13 -- 90 = 90
AGI: 05/06 -- 42 = 132
REF: 07/08 -- 66 = 198
STR: 09/11 -- 72 = 270
CHA: 02/03 -- 06 = 276
INT: 05/06 -- 42 = 318
LOG: 03/04 -- 15 = 333
WIL: 07/08 -- 66 = 399
EDG: 04/06 -- 27 = 426
MAG: 04/05 -- 27 = 453

Max spendable: 485

[Simon Kerimov]

Yes, we want more SCI-Protect. I am working on Manatech solutions for the mundane, and I'd post them, but I'm planning on using them for Shadow War, so I'll keep them secret until then. The rules I'm self imposing for my Manatech inventions are that I'm creating nothing new, just finding ways to use and abuse what is written without breaking the spirit of the thing.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Doooo itttt.

As Johnny well knows, I'm in favor of mundane anti-magic as well. Though my 5 Willpower Fomori is able to shrug off many magical attacks, his more squishy friends tend to not fair so well... Some of the stuff in the SCIprotect thread was exactly what SHOULD have been in the core book to begin with. If you can't cure the disease (tech that can stop the spell from happening in the first place), treat the symptoms (tech that works to counteract the known physiological consequences of the spell). It's kind of ridiculous that magic has been around so long and, according to the books, no one has done anything like this before.

While I think magic is too powerful I hate things like Famori and many of the other mundane vs magic solutions. It feels like someone is trying to solve the issue with a hammer, when the problem is the core concepts. There is way too much on/off of how to shut down magic, you 1/2 the force making spells fairly weak sauce, you have rating infinity FAB2 barriers trapping people in the astral, you have background count X that shuts them down.

[TheMidnightHobo]

While I think magic is too powerful I hate things like Famori and many of the other mundane vs magic solutions. It feels like someone is trying to solve the issue with a hammer, when the problem is the core concepts. There is way too much on/off of how to shut down magic, you 1/2 the force making spells fairly weak sauce, you have rating infinity FAB2 barriers trapping people in the astral, you have background count X that shuts them down.

It's actually not as cut-and-dry as you make it seem. My team recently did a number on a Talismonger's shop (to steal some tablet or other), and - surprise, surprise - it had magical security, in the form of a Force 5 (I believe) Spirit of Man with Stunbolt attached (keep in mind our entire team is completely non-magical - this is not a small obstacle). My Fomori beatstick had to spend 3 of his 5 edge points, and he still walked out with 6 points of stun damage (dragging his incoherent and unconscious teammates behind, with the booty slung in his duffle). We were victorious, true (sort of, anyway - the spirit fled before I could finish it off), but it was far from a one-sided rout.

That being said, I partially agree with you, though I'm fine with the on-off anti-magic stuff. It only becomes a problem when they are the ONLY ways for a mundane to counter magic, like it is now. Like you say, the problem is the core concept. What we need are some mundane solutions that offer bonuses to dice pools and such (see SCIprotect's many amazing deals!).

[Simon Kerimov]

Through simple selection process, the Arcane Arrester metagenic trait will become very common.

[Voran]

I guess this is why since...I dunno 2e or so? I've liked chemical weapons. Actually its not just for use vs combat monsters, I love chemical weapons against all types. Cept the rare dude in full chemseal.

[Rock_Bottom]

An Adept with six points of powers loses an essence point; it's a set back and must initiate to regain the lost point.

Wait. What?

[Reg06]

Wait. What?

Magic is capped at Essence+Initiation. So if an Essence 6, Magic 6 Adept loses a point of Essence, Magic is reduced to (and capped at) 5 until it initiates.

[Draco18s]

I thought the consensus was that ghouls *want* to lose Dual-Natured, because it's (apparently) a huge drawback? You keep the (worthless) claws either way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Isn't Dual Natured the only thing offseting their being blind!? Because last I checked--which admittedly was a while ago--you can't fix a ghoul's blindness with cyber (that's why its a flaw it represents something that can't be fixed with "modern" medical magic/technology).

[Rock_Bottom]

Magic is capped at Essence+Initiation. So if an Essence 6, Magic 6 Adept loses a point of Essence, Magic is reduced to (and capped at) 5 until it initiates.

Okay. That's so not how I read it. I read it as any adept who takes 6 points of powers loses a point of essence, which makes no sense.

[Yerameyahu]

Nope. You can explicitly replace a ghoul's vision with cybereyes, or simply strap a camera to their forehead and trode it into their brain.

[knightofargh]

While I think magic is too powerful I hate things like Famori and many of the other mundane vs magic solutions. It feels like someone is trying to solve the issue with a hammer, when the problem is the core concepts. There is way too much on/off of how to shut down magic, you 1/2 the force making spells fairly weak sauce, you have rating infinity FAB2 barriers trapping people in the astral, you have background count X that shuts them down.

Pretty much why I've given up on SR and changed over to Alpha Omega for my dystopian future RPG needs. I consider it a good thing when an NPC fireteam (based on current Marine Corps structure/doctrine) makes an optimized party head for cover. Plus "magic" that actually costs the user a decent amount and at higher levels, given a poor roll, can kill the user? Bonus!

Ultimately magic is an "I WIN!" button in SR, it's also a whole hell of alot rarer than one would assume from looking at this site in particular. If only 1 in 10000 (1 in 100 of the 1 in 100 Awakened) people are likely to have enough mojo to be magic based runners, there isn't any way that they couldn't find a high paying job with a mega. I realize that PCs may often have a "screw the man" anarchist bend, but that still doesn't explain why a normal four man team (circa SR3) is a Shaman, a Mage, a Face and a Gun Bunny (either sammy or adept). That's 50 to 75% of the average team being Awakened. That's a touch greater than the more statistically probable 100th of a percent...