Magic versus Chrome, Adept trumps Cyber? Options

[Dakka Dakka]

Ultimately magic is an "I WIN!" button in SR, it's also a whole hell of alot rarer than one would assume from looking at this site in particular. If only 1 in 10000 (1 in 100 of the 1 in 100 Awakened) people are likely to have enough mojo to be magic based runners, there isn't any way that they couldn't find a high paying job with a mega. I realize that PCs may often have a "screw the man" anarchist bend, but that still doesn't explain why a normal four man team (circa SR3) is a Shaman, a Mage, a Face and a Gun Bunny (either sammy or adept). That's 50 to 75% of the average team being Awakened. That's a touch greater than the more statistically probable 100th of a percent...

Don't try to apply statistics to the statistical anomaly that runner groups are. Otherwise between one and two out of four runners would have to be illiterate, 1/2 female, none of the runners should have any exceptional skill and so on. I'm not so sure about the percentages, but I doubt the statistical runner group could support more than one metahuman. Metavariants, surgelings and infected should be impossible. Not to forget there would be no awakened character at all.

[knightofargh]

Don't try to apply statistics to the statistical anomaly that runner groups are. Otherwise between one and two out of four runners would have to be illiterate, 1/2 female, none of the runners should have any exceptional skill and so on. I'm not so sure about the percentages, but I doubt the statistical runner group could support more than one metahuman. Metavariants, surgelings and infected should be impossible. Not to forget there would be no awakened character at all.

Is this like how circa SR3 it was impossible for the SINless to survive since they couldn't have bank accounts and paper money doesn't exist? Certified credsticks are a stopgap FASAnomics fix for that glaring oversight and they don't make sense given that creating a certified credstick actually costs a percentage (fluff-wise at least).

Even given that runners are special, Awakened PCs are way too common.

[Lanlaorn]

No, this is like quoting the percentage for how rare it is to be very tall and claiming professional basketball teams simply cannot exist.

If being awakened gives you an advantage while shadowrunning then it shouldn't be surprising that they're frequently shadowrunners. The same is true of Technomancers. And world-class Hackers. And world-class Marksmen. And...

[Doc Byte]

Did you ever see a tall, heavyweight jockey? Statistically, most jockeys in the US should be overweight.

That's a very nice well rounded character (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

but it's not a min-max monstrosity that COULD be built with the same amount of karma and cash

Granted, I didn't make him too powerfull on purpose.

[pbangarth]

The problem isn't with the 'Ware, it's with the inability of mundanes to cope with magic at all. If it's harder to heal a low essence target it should be logically harder to harm them with magic given the setting's fluff.

This concept isn't talked about enough. It seems to make sense. How come things don't work this way? If a character is heavily metalled, why does an object resistance not come into play?

[Yerameyahu]

I've heard that before, as well. I assume they left it out to avoid making sams invincible.

[knightofargh]

No, this is like quoting the percentage for how rare it is to be very tall and claiming professional basketball teams simply cannot exist.

If being awakened gives you an advantage while shadowrunning then it shouldn't be surprising that they're frequently shadowrunners. The same is true of Technomancers. And world-class Hackers. And world-class Marksmen. And...

How many of those basketball players don't exist according to the government? How many of them are effectively non-entities due to not having a SSN/SIN?

World class anything unless they have a good reason to not do so should be employed by a corporation or government. There's no reason why anyone in their right mind would choose a life of crime when their skills are good enough to live a relatively luxurious life. That's especially relevant to Awakened PCs who are by all fluff standards a rare commodity.

This concept isn't talked about enough. It seems to make sense. How come things don't work this way? If a character is heavily metalled, why does an object resistance not come into play?

Because the developers (and I believe this goes back to FASA) hate chrome and want it to be used as little as possible? The primary themes of cyberpunk as a genre were corporations run amok with no oversight, fractured governments, body invasion and a large disenfranchised under-class.

Emphasis added above to highlight the relevant theme. By making 'Ware a less useful or appealing option it kills one of the cyberpunk genre's core conceits.

I've heard that before, as well. I assume they left it out to avoid making sams invincible.

Versus now where they can get stunbolted into a coma with virtually no risk of drain to the mage?

edit: to reply to Yeramevahu, posted after I started typing.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Pretty much why I've given up on SR and changed over to Alpha Omega for my dystopian future RPG needs. I consider it a good thing when an NPC fireteam (based on current Marine Corps structure/doctrine) makes an optimized party head for cover. Plus "magic" that actually costs the user a decent amount and at higher levels, given a poor roll, can kill the user? Bonus!

Ultimately magic is an "I WIN!" button in SR, it's also a whole hell of alot rarer than one would assume from looking at this site in particular. If only 1 in 10000 (1 in 100 of the 1 in 100 Awakened) people are likely to have enough mojo to be magic based runners, there isn't any way that they couldn't find a high paying job with a mega. I realize that PCs may often have a "screw the man" anarchist bend, but that still doesn't explain why a normal four man team (circa SR3) is a Shaman, a Mage, a Face and a Gun Bunny (either sammy or adept). That's 50 to 75% of the average team being Awakened. That's a touch greater than the more statistically probable 100th of a percent...

One of these days I'll get around to checking Alpha Omega out.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Because the developers (and I believe this goes back to FASA) hate chrome and want it to be used as little as possible? The primary themes of cyberpunk as a genre were corporations run amok with no oversight, fractured governments, body invasion and a large disenfranchised under-class.

Emphasis added above to highlight the relevant theme. By making 'Ware a less useful or appealing option it kills one of the cyberpunk genre's core conceits.


Versus now where they can get stunbolted into a coma with virtually no risk of drain to the mage?

edit: to reply to Yeramevahu, posted after I started typing.

That may be true, but I don't think it applied to FASA. If you look at 1e and 2e due to the initiative system Sams were living large. When mages got around to going if anything was left they could mop it up fairly effectively, but especially in 1e the drain would hurt and hurt bad. Mages were more the utility knife than the big ass the sword with a utility knifes tools concealed in the hilt.

[knightofargh]

One of these days I'll get around to checking Alpha Omega out.

It's a solid and fairly scalable system. It will probably fall into the Dumpster of Obscurity™ if MSL doesn't start producing more books. It's getting about one per year and that's not enough. They really need a GM supplement and some setting books in order for the system to succeed.

I particularly like how no one strategy wins all the time, at close (indoor and urban) ranges melee, magic and SMG sized weapons are dominant. At realistic outdoor ranges melee is a non-issue and rifles are dominant. Grenades are also pleasantly expensive.

I will end my threadjacking now.

[knightofargh]

That may be true, but I don't think it applied to FASA. If you look at 1e and 2e due to the initiative system Sams were living large. When mages got around to going if anything was left they could mop it up fairly effectively, but especially in 1e the drain would hurt and hurt bad. Mages were more the utility knife than the big ass the sword with a utility knifes tools concealed in the hilt.

I started with SR3 so I never got to see a time where mages/adepts didn't have a dominant role. I've never seen a time where mages actually worried about drain actually.

So mages were more scalpel than thermonuclear device in the earliest FASA editions? I could get behind that.

[JurneeJakes]

A ghoul? Really?

What if the mission requires seduction? Or international travel? Or even just negotiation? How many people deal with a known canibalistic and highly contagious creature? Heck, Adepts can apparently even shapeshift now, can mask their auras with initiation, and can do more damage with their bare hands (smashing blow, killing hands, critical strike, penetrating strike) than a panther assault cannon.

Give a physad a commlink and an internal control rig and there's simply no role they can't fill. And that's not even taking into consideration Mystic Adepts.

[Inpu]

Is this like how circa SR3 it was impossible for the SINless to survive since they couldn't have bank accounts and paper money doesn't exist? Certified credsticks are a stopgap FASAnomics fix for that glaring oversight and they don't make sense given that creating a certified credstick actually costs a percentage (fluff-wise at least).

Even given that runners are special, Awakened PCs are way too common.

Not entirely true. Yakuza and the Mob have always offered an alternative for SINless, and you forget basic barter. People can survive on a lot or very little. The only thing that ever really got me was the massive death tolls that each adventure I've read has.

Beyond that, I don't find Awakened PCs especially common. Like draws to like and a fair number of non-PC Runners (the majority in a game) are not Mages themselves. It all depends on style really. Plus, there is a problem with the statistic of Awakened individuals: it is based on those with SIN numbers, as that is a reliable survey crowd. It is difficult to get a reliable number out of SINless, so that means Magic could in fact be more common.

Still, I've heard this argument a lot. It never really jives with me. I can see where you're coming from, but I disagree a bit. I think it depends on what kind of game you decide to run more than anything.

This concept isn't talked about enough. It seems to make sense. How come things don't work this way? If a character is heavily metalled, why does an object resistance not come into play?

Happy coincidence, I started a thread on this very topic not long before it appeared in this one.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=32356

[Yerameyahu]

Someone sounds bitter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I don't know about you, but my games aren't a collection of super-mages and adepts, and the cyber-tank characters *can* only be stopped by that stunbolt, chemicals, or vehicle weapons. *shrug* I like the idea of the essence/healing rule cutting both ways, but I can see possible reasons it does not.

[knightofargh]

Someone sounds bitter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I don't know about you, but my games aren't a collection of super-mages and adepts, and the cyber-tank characters *can* only be stopped by that stunbolt, chemicals, or vehicle weapons. *shrug* I like the idea of the essence/healing rule cutting both ways, but I can see possible reasons it does not.

Neither are mine. Based on dumpshock I'd guess that all pixie teams are common as they provide mechanical advantage. I've found that requiring a background story helps. Combined with GM fiat it keeps the munchier PCs at bay.

Honestly magic would be more in line with what I think SR should be if essence loss modified mana spells. Physical spells I'm fine with hitting low essence characters/mooks normally, but it doesn't make sense that something that effects life-force would effect something that's more metal than meat well. Meh, my opinion and 5���¥ will get you a cup of soykaf at SoyBucks.

[Draco18s]

This concept isn't talked about enough. It seems to make sense. How come things don't work this way? If a character is heavily metalled, why does an object resistance not come into play?

I'm going to ruin the connectiveness of your flesh.
Oh, you have very little flesh.
Well, let me just nip out that there. *snip*
Hey, look at that, your arm fell off.


When you're low-essence and magic is doing damage, it doesn't take a lot of power to make it hurt: there's hardly any of you left to damage, yes, but it takes a lot less power to have the same effect.

[Dakka Dakka]

This would make sense if you could single out the meat parts of a target, but this is impossible just as it is impossible to single out the ware.

[Yerameyahu]

That's not how magic seems to work, though, and it's certainly now how non-magical damage works. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

This would make sense if you could single out the meat parts of a target, but this is impossible just as it is impossible to single out the ware.

Throw a giant bolt of energy at them. The metal resists (aww, not enough power...) and the flesh crisps nicely.

Singled out? No, we just throw raw energy at it, and because the flesh's integrity is already damaged, damaging it further isn't that hard.

[Inpu]

Throw a giant bolt of energy at them. The metal resists (aww, not enough power...) and the flesh crisps nicely.

Singled out? No, we just throw raw energy at it, and because the flesh's integrity is already damaged, damaging it further isn't that hard.

The problem is that the flesh is just as strong, if not stronger. It only fails when Essence dips below zero. Essence doesn't necessarily measure how healthy the flesh is: Body does that.

[Draco18s]

The problem is that the flesh is just as strong, if not stronger. It only fails when Essence dips below zero. Essence doesn't necessarily measure how healthy the flesh is: Body does that.

Ahh, I see you've hit on the essence of my argument:

It is not harder to hurt someone with magic when they have low Essence in the same way that it is harder to heal them.

[Doc Byte]

World class anything unless they have a good reason to not do so should be employed by a corporation or government. There's no reason why anyone in their right mind would choose a life of crime when their skills are good enough to live a relatively luxurious life. That's especially relevant to Awakened PCs who are by all fluff standards a rare commodity.

Maybe some individuals simply chose personal freedom over being a wage slave. And magicans tend to be highly individual people. Apart from hermetics, there's little room for other traditions. Maybe a dog security shaman, but what do you do with a voodoo priest in your corp? 2072's not our world. It's dystopian cyberpunk and I can imagine enough reasons for living in the shadows. Particularly since Shadowrunners are no ordinary criminals, but part of the establishment.

[Inpu]

Ahh, I see you've hit on the essence of my argument:

It is not harder to hurt someone with magic when they have low Essence in the same way that it is harder to heal them.

Eh, it's harder because they're a toaster. I do find a strong disconnect between those two and personally wish to see that changed to some degree.

That was an awesome pun though.

Maybe some individuals simply chose personal freedom over being a wage slave. And magicans tend to be highly individual people. Apart from hermetics, there's little room for other traditions. Maybe a dog security shaman, but what do you do with a voodoo priest in your corp? 2072's not our world. It's dystopian cyberpunk and I can imagine enough reasons for living in the shadows. Particularly since Shadowrunners are no ordinary criminals, but part of the establishment.

"Congratulations on becoming a Mage and having the ability to rework the world according to your will! Now do our bidding."

[sabs]

What if you were a corporate sponsored shadowrun team, and you got backstabbed in some political machinations.
That's a good reason not to want to work for a corp directly.

[Doc Byte]

What if you were a corporate sponsored shadowrun team, and you got backstabbed in some political machinations.
That's a good reason not to want to work for a corp directly.

I see a black van with a red strip on the sides....