Magic versus Chrome, Adept trumps Cyber? Options

[Kruger]

I started with SR3 so I never got to see a time where mages/adepts didn't have a dominant role. I've never seen a time where mages actually worried about drain actually.

So mages were more scalpel than thermonuclear device in the earliest FASA editions? I could get behind that.

Mages in the older systems held a lot of power, but there was some balance to it. Magic was something that could be used as an equalizer, and as a surprise that gave the runners an edge, but not without its cost. With the newer systems, it seems like it became the baby of someone on the Dev team and magic became commonplace and easy. The problem with games like this, especially for developers, is resisting the urge to constantly be looking for bigger and better and shinier. In the film industry, this is typically referred to as sequel syndrome. Shadowrun fell into this trap. They already had a game that players liked, but they were constantly trying to drag in every bit of the niche market, getting sillier and sillier as they went on. Good for business? Maybe. But, then again, the game is on its third publisher...

It is no surprise why 2e seems to hold the most loyalty of all the systems.

[Kruger]

I see a black van with a red strip on the sides....

The remake made me sad. And I wanted to like it too.

[Doc Chase]

I see a black van with a red strip on the sides....

In 2064, a crack corporate security unit was sent to prison by the Corporate Court for a crime they didn't commit. These metas promptly escaped from a maximum security facility to the Seattle underground. Today, still wanted by the corporation, they survive as shadowrunners. If you have a problem, if no one else is affordable, and if you can find them, you can hire...

[Draco18s]

Eh, it's harder because they're a toaster. I do find a strong disconnect between those two and personally wish to see that changed to some degree.

It's harder because they're a toaster, but at the same time its easier because they're a toaster.

Harder in that there's less flesh but easier it takes less energy to harm that flesh. It balances out to being the same energy requirement.

Imagine that a space the size of your driveway is one fire. It's going to take A LOT of water to put out that fire, but any water you do throw with your bucket makes progress.

Now, what if only a tenth of your driveway was on fire. If you throw the same amount of water out there, it'll still "hurt" the fire: some of the water will miss, but the water that does hit will do a proportionally similar amount of damage to the ability of the fire to continue burning.

Healing works differently: instead of a bucket you have a squirt gun. If you don't aim correctly at the fire, you're not doing anything at all.

Its the difference between blunt force trauma and a scalpel. If you put your hand on a toaster and smash your hand with a hammer, its going to hurt (both your hand, and the toaster). If you put a band aid on the toaster its not helping you get better.

[sabs]

In 2064, a crack corporate security unit was sent to prison by the Corporate Court for a crime they didn't commit. These metas promptly escaped from a maximum security facility to the Seattle underground. Today, still wanted by the corporation, they survive as shadowrunners. If you have a problem, if no one else is affordable, and if you can find them, you can hire...

the new one was SO pink mohawk SR

[Kruger]

It's harder because they're a toaster, but at the same time its easier because they're a toaster.

Harder in that there's less flesh but easier it takes less energy to harm that flesh. It balances out to being the same energy requirement.

Imagine that a space the size of your driveway is one fire. It's going to take A LOT of water to put out that fire, but any water you do throw with your bucket makes progress.

Now, what if only a tenth of your driveway was on fire. If you throw the same amount of water out there, it'll still "hurt" the fire: some of the water will miss, but the water that does hit will do a proportionally similar amount of damage to the ability of the fire to continue burning.

Healing works differently: instead of a bucket you have a squirt gun. If you don't aim correctly at the fire, you're not doing anything at all.

Its the difference between blunt force trauma and a scalpel. If you put your hand on a toaster and smash your hand with a hammer, its going to hurt (both your hand, and the toaster). If you put a band aid on the toaster its not helping you get better.

This line of reasoning doesn't hold up. At all. And you contradict yourself.

It doesn't take less energy to harm the flesh. The same amount of energy is being expended, just certain portions of it are lost not affecting the flesh. Is a lower amount of energy affecting the flesh? Sure. But that's just because a lower amount is impacting.

At the same time, compare someone who is cyberized to someone completely natural. The person with no synthetics to absorb the spell's energy are actually taking more overall energy into their bio system than someone with no modifications. So by that theory, the non-cybered person should be the easier one to damage. Everything you hit with that spells energy is damaged, instead of simply the squishy bits in between the metal and other synthetics on the cybered person.

The magical healing arguments works to an extent because instead of using magic to recreate the flesh and to theoretically stimulate regeneration of natural tissue, you're trying to stimulate compatible regrowth to the surgical enhancements.

[PoliteMan]

I think the problem you'd find with granting a Sammi resistance to magic due to low Essence is that it makes sense for some kinds of spells and not so much for others.

For example it makes sense for a Sammi to be harder to stunball or mindcontrol. The physical body is vastly different from the human norm and the brain has either directly been modified or has had to adapt to all the physical changes. In SR3 the Essence loss didn't come from installing cyberware, it came from learning to use the cyberware properly, which involved vast changes in how you had to think. When you have wires crisscrossing your spine affecting every action you make your body has to relearn every single motion and you end up thinking more like a machine and less like a human. For example, with a powerful enough Encephelon system, you literally no longer think about eating, going to the bathroom, or whether you need to sneeze. A computer in your brain handles all of that and once that becomes normal for you, you're no longer thinking like a human. Mind controlling a heavily cybered individual shouldn't be that different than trying to mind control a computer or a drone because at that point they're not far away.

Conversely, I can't think of any good reason why low Essence would help you against a fireball or acid stream.

Making one convenient rule that can handle both those situations seems like it'd be pretty tough, especially with all the different spells out there.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, I think the point was made that indirect/'elemental manipulations' wouldn't be subject to this? That's how Object Resistance works, AFAIK (which may not be very far).

[Inpu]

Which is partly why heal is harder, yes. I agree with Kruger.

And yes, such a resistance would only be useful against things that have to overcome object resistance.

[Kruger]

In the end, rules like that are incredibly hard to write, so were probably much better left unwritten.

In fact, it's not really all that hard to get pretty low in Essence without even opting for obvious and/or extensive exterior replacements, or even really internal replacements. Not every sub 1 Essence character is going to be sporting cyberlimbs and dermal armor, etc.

[Doc Chase]

Uhm...Aren't physical spells resisted by Body, and mana by Willpower?

Or am I in 3rd again?

[Inpu]

In the end, rules like that are incredibly hard to write, so were probably much better left unwritten.

In fact, it's not really all that hard to get pretty low in Essence without even opting for obvious and/or extensive exterior replacements, or even really internal replacements. Not every sub 1 Essence character is going to be sporting cyberlimbs and dermal armor, etc.

No, but then I don't think they would get any modifiers for any sort of 'object resistance'. They just lost Essence.

[Yerameyahu]

It's mystical. I don't see a fluff problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Chainsaw Samurai]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately myself, so I figured I would throw my two cents in.

If we break down limitations of what a character can do with adept powers or ware, it predominantly boils down to 6 points. Essence and Magic being largely interchangeable. Over the long term the Adept can hypothetically double his magic rating, conversely the Sam can essentially double his essence through upgraded ware (and a proper mix of cyber and bio can get an awful lot of mileage out of his essence to start with). Hypothetically a "pure" adept vs a Street Sam should technically come out around even as, realistically, getting to 6 initiation grade should be just as long and difficult as getting a load of delta (your adept shouldn't just burn some karma, yell "DING!" and suddenly know more magic, just like your Sam can't just buy a Delta set of Muscle Aug off the shelf).

Where the main discrepancy lies, is in equivalency. For instance, base Wired Reflexes 2 is "worth" 3 power points (3 essence lost), equivalently a similar adept power is worth 2.5. This is before taking into account grade of the ware, level of initiation (and obviously the Bioware version is by and far the most "efficient" speaking solely in the form of Essence/Power Points).

Conversely, increasing a point of strength and a point of agility from cyber is worth a point of essence and similar increases for an adept is one and a half points (even worse! If this brings you above your natural maximum, it is worth 1.5 PER POINT!).

It seems to me that flat attribute boosts, cyberware is much more efficient than power points. Adepts get ahead in certain other perks from their abilities, usually in the forms of traits that a Samurai simply cannot match. For instance, wholesale increase of Skills, while a reflex recorder is "cheaper" in essence, it really doesn't compare to being able to toss on several points more of a skill. Magic Resistance is another perk an adept has available to him. This is why Adepts end up being better specialists and Sams better generalists. It is ridiculously expensive for a "pure" Adept to get a few point increase on an Attribute (which would help a broad spectrum of skills), however they can jack their individual skills and other abilities in ways the Sam has no way to replicate.

After a lot of comparing and conclusion I eventually came to the realization, there is no equivalency. Cleverly min-maxing cyber and bio can net a Sam quite a bit of increases at chargen with 50 points. Those 50 points are less than the Adept would spend on just raising his Magic attribute to 6. Comparing what they can or cannot do ends up with apples and oranges depending on how the two were built, however out the gate the Adept could (for example) potentially out shoot the Sam, but would suffer on other types of attack rolls compared to the Samurai's superior Agility rating.

This situation only complicates the longer the characters are around. The Adept blows a load of Karma to initiate and get a 7th point of magic (45-50 Karma, roughly 9 runs), during this time, perhaps the Samurai wants to upgrade a piece of Cyber to Alphaware. The Adept doesn't lose anything and simply gains a power point, however the Samurai loses 70-90% of his initial investment (the cost of the cyber when it was plugged into him compared to what he can fence it for) and pays even more money to have the SAME STATISTICS wedged back into him at double the cost. All this allows the Sam to do is then spend even more money to fill in the hole left by the upgrade. Think that sounds like a bum deal for the Samurai?

It isn't. The Samurai got to spend that 45-50 Karma on skills and attributes.

In conclusions "pure" Adepts and Street Samurai aren't even on the same page, and shouldn't be compared. The real issue is Adepts getting ware (Bio or Cyber) and essentially min-maxing the best parts of both. The best way I can think of to contain them without cracking down too hard is to limit initiation grade to your BASE magic level (e.g if your max magic is 3 due to essence loss, you could only initiate 3 times for a total of 6 magic).

[Shinobi Killfist]

The remake made me sad. And I wanted to like it too.

I loved the remake and saw it twice. For my tastes it is the best movie of the year.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

I loved the remake and saw it twice. For my tastes it is the best movie of the year.

I'm not sure if the name "Shinobi Killfist" attached to this endorsement works for or against the movie.

[sabs]

I don't think that Adept are better than Street Sam, or vice versa.

I think Mages are better than both.

And I think that Adepts with 1-2 points of essence spent on bio/cyber are better than either a straight Sam or a Straight Adept.

And Worse, is a Mage who does the same thing.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

Yeah I think that's generally where we're at.

Certain adept powers are awesome and unavailable any way else. Furthermore, certain adept powers stack with their limited cyber options (mystic armor). However being a "cherry picking" adept who takes the efficient stuff from adept and wedges in some bio and cyber where he can wins on all fronts.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, obviously they'd be MysAd. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

especially with the FULL Magic Score reading of the Mys Adept rules

2 point of phys ad, 2 of spellcasting, 2 essence
and yet he can get phys ad powers as if he had a Magic of 4 (even if he only has 2 points worth)
He can assense, counter-spell etc, as if he had a 4 magic

[Dakka Dakka]

He can assense, counter-spell etc, as if he had a 4 magic

Funnily neither of the uses are limited by magic, except counterspelling to stop a sustained spell, in which case the mystic adept only rolls 2+counterspelling. And hew only casts spells with a pool of 2+spellcasting; his maximum force is 8 though with overcasting.

[Irion]

@sabs

And I think that Adepts with 1-2 points of essence spent on bio/cyber are better than either a straight Sam or a Straight Adept.

And Worse, is a Mage who does the same thing.

Well, actually essence is bigger issue for mages then for adepts.
Adept powers are mostly independent from Magic rating. (Yes, theit max level is up to magic, but what the hell?)
So for an adept Bioware to increase his INI-passes is better then the adept power. (1.5 Points to 4 Points)


For a mage on the other and low magic attribute comes in many forms to bite you.
Physical drain, less dices on Spellcasting, less dices for masking, less dices for summoning/binding, max level for spells to be masked, limiting your time you could stay astral, helping you to pass wards etc.

So if you rule that a mage with two essence less will always(as long as they use their Karma for the same things) stay behind two points behind in magic, then I would say, that one point is quite a good idea, but two points become critical. And 3 points will make you a much worse mage.

Lets for example take a mage with 3 Initiations and a Magic score of 8. (Why 8? Becaus two low scores will just cripple the mage using essence but I guess no player would try to get higher. Too expensive for the effect)
So you get a mage with magic 8 and one with 5.
The one with 5 will have a lot of cyber and bio. I would guess about two points of Bio and 1.5 of cyber.
So yes, he will have higher drain stats, he will have 3-4 passes, he will have any basic visionenhancement and some other gimics. Yes, he wil be superior.

But what is it, the other mage could do?
Quickening comes into the mind. He is capable to quicken and hide 3 spells at a force of 8.
Detect Enemys/Lifeforms (extended radius), Combat Sense and Increase Reflexes. (Even with the strict ruling he will get about 8 hits each and will be ableto use them)
Which means he wil be aware of Enemys half a mile away, gets 8 dices on evading and suprise test and 4 INi-passes. (Costs: 3*8=24 Karma)
These spells will be close to impossible to break. (A mage trying to break a force 8 increase reflex will have to roll against 24 dices and have a draincode of 6.
There are close to no wards with the ability to break them. Would need a Force 9 Ward to stand a Chance, which would ask for 9 Points of drain.

So yes, the cybermage will be worse in the beginning(if you are limited to force 4 or 6 spells(overcast) but he will come out ahead when he reaches a magic of 4 and he will be a top for a while. But as soon as the initiation rating reaches about 4 to 5 the pure mage can pull up some insane stunts.
I would guess it will take up to 200 Karma, so it is more a theoretical in nature but since some here seem to start with this amount I guess I should include it.
If you rule it by the book a cybermage with 3 points of ware will soon be just 1 point behind. So he is alway superior.

[Mäx]

So for an adept Bioware to increase his INI-passes is better then the adept power. (1.5 Points to 4 Points)

I don't know, i have in many builds ended up making the character a adept, spesifically for the level 2 INI boost.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

The 4A initiative boost 2 is better than flat out Wired 2. However this is where it loses it's lead. Every other form of initiative pass granting 'ware (from Alpha Wired Reflexes on up) is more efficient point for point. Synaptic Booster is criminally good for the essence cost. Hell if you've got the cash for higher grades and can juggle your Cyber and Bio well enough Move By Wire provides passes, 2x the reaction, a point of dodge per level, and skillwires. Not to mention MBW will be nigh-guaranteed to cut the cost of your Bioware in half. With the right build up it is a phenomenal deal (even getting the Adapsin to drop just that ONE piece of Cyber by 10% will more than pay for itself in essence).

Some of the Adept powers are extremely competitively priced. Some of them are flat out unique. However a few of them are simply asinine. .75 power points for one measly attribute point? 1.5 if it goes above your natural maximum? That is insane! A whole point to be able to run a few meters on a vertical surface? Granted you can't really do it any other way, but why so ridiculously expensive?

I don't think Adept > 'Ware because of a few of these power point pricing schemes, but a well planned Cyber Adept is ludicrous. Not to mention, while the awakend beg the GM for Karma and the Sams beg for cash, a 'ware using Adept is happy and advancing well no matter what he gets.

[Irion]

Well, what I said is for the theory.
If you evere going to get the money in order to get an synaptic booster rating 2 (I guess 160.000) is an other questions and dependent on the group you play in.
(While Chargen it would cost about 32 BP. Due to the magic loss even more expensive for adepts(32BP+1 point of Magic).