Counterspelling Options

[TBRMInsanity]

As a house rule, if the -2 dice penalty existed, I would argue that it was on the Counterspelling dice only (ie out distracted and thus can't deflect spell energy as well as you could with total concentration). This would mean it is never a bad thing to declare counterspelling (it just may be useless for some people in certain situations).

That being said, SR has always had in the rules that penalties never apply to damage reduction tests, so I would say the -2 dice penalty doesn't apply to Counterspelling in this situation.

[Lanlaorn]

As far as I can tell from the rules, specialization does not add dice for counter spelling. It's one very often overlooked section of the rules.

Are you arguing that you can't specialize your counterspelling skill? I shouldn't have to point out how that's very clearly wrong.

[UmaroVI]

No, that's not how it works. It is IIRC a flat bonus to the roll if you have only one mage counterspelling for you. It is a roll if there is more then one mage involved. It's kind of a wierd mechanic but it does save a signifigant amount of dice rolling.

@UmaroIV: I see where your coming from but I can't buy into it. I can't predict writer intent but from both a power standpoint and a logic one I think if they'd intended that they would have required no declaration at all just a check in the spell resistance to see if any mages wanted to be counterspelling.

Interpreting it to be that you have to spend a free action every Action Phase doing it has other strange effects, though, like making Centering a terrible metamagic (since you wouldn't be able to Center and Counterspell at the same time).

[LurkerOutThere]

It doesn't make centering less powerfull it just forces you to make choices, centering should not be "free dice" anyway. I'm not arguing that you can't specialize countspelling, the point I'm making is your not rolling your specialty when folks are adding the dice to resist spells, it is something that falls outside the normal scope of the specialization effect.

Personally in my experience actually forcing people to pick defense(counterspelling) or offense (centering) seems to work well both thematically and mechanically at my tables.

[Lanlaorn]

What are you talking about, you add your counterspell dice pool to your ally's dice pool. Specialization modifies that dice pool and it works. It doesn't matter who physically rolls the dice in-game it's you using ("rolling") your skill for the benefit of another. And specialization, counterspell foci, shielding foci and whatever else all apply.

[X-Kalibur]

Are you arguing that you can't specialize your counterspelling skill? I shouldn't have to point out how that's very clearly wrong.

Where did he actually say that? Please re-read his statement.

Also, the exact text states - For spell defense, Counterspelling dice are added to each protected defender’s dice
pool. - Sounds to me like specialization works just fine, but you only get the +2 dice to that school of magic.

Now for the next part.

High counterspelling is easy, you don't need to be some tricked out mystic adept. Things that are often overlooked, a Mentor's Spirit bonus to a certain spell school applies to the entire sorcery group, i.e. Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting and Counterspelling. Similarly a Spirit's Aid Sorcery affects all 3 in the sorcery group, so Ally Spirits which can Aid Sorcery 24/7 are amazing. And of course the shielding metamagic is terrific.

Mentor Spirits - why not just take one that gives a +2 counterspell bonus instead? That way it applies to all schools.

Aid sorcery/ ally spirit - now you're talking about a large investment of karma in an ally spirit. Also - With Counterspelling, the spell being countered must be of the appropriate type. Food for thought there. Meaning a hermetic needs a bound fire for combat counterspell, etc

Shielding Metamagic - again, karma expenditure that for most mages is better served elsewhere and Mystic Adepts can still qualify for it. Same with the Ally spirit.

I'm sorry, what was your point again?

[Lanlaorn]

My point was that you can make a "mage killer" with any mage trivially without the need of some kind of pimped out mystic adept. My point wasn't that a mystic adept can't do it, it's that you don't need a mystic adept at all and just getting normal things, such as initiating and an ally spirit, gives you a ridiculous defense.

Also?
1. If you take a useful Mentor Spirit instead you can counterspell and get a bonus to normal casts.
2. An ally spirit isn't restricted to a specific spell type and they're an extremely useful karma investment, you'd be getting much more than the counterspelling dice.
3. It's one initiation, and there aren't as many useful ones as you imply. Get it 3rd or 4th if you want to wait, the point is that it's there.

All told, even after multiple initiations, getting the ally spirit, etc., we're talking ~100 karma at most, not a small sum but something a lot of people even start their games at (e.g. 400 BP +100 karma).

The first part of your post is completely idiotic so you'll have to guide me through it:

Where did he actually say that? Please re-read his statement.

Right here:

As far as I can tell from the rules, specialization does not add dice for counter spelling. It's one very often overlooked section of the rules.

Specialization clearly adds dice, so the only logical explanation is he's saying you can't specialize. He clarified later that he was saying you don't get the dice since "you're not rolling your specialty", whatever that means. I still disagreed and gosh, the next part of your post concurs:

Also, the exact text states - For spell defense, Counterspelling dice are added to each protected defender’s dice
pool. - Sounds to me like specialization works just fine, but you only get the +2 dice to that school of magic.

Obviously you only get the +2 to the chosen specialty. Thanks for agreeing with what I was saying and directly contradicting the earlier poster who said specialization does not add dice.

P.S. Either work on your reading comprehension or stop being a jackass, whatever the hell your post was supposed to be was just embarrassing. You've extremely hostile for no reason while... agreeing with me? Um, ok.

[Doc Chase]

I don't have a sheet in front of me. Isn't Counterspelling its own skill?

edit: Wait, durr. Yes it is. You'd then specialize in what, counterspelling schools?

[Fatum]

Yep.

[X-Kalibur]

You can stop making me laugh any time you want.

You stated

Are you arguing that you can't specialize your counterspelling skill? I shouldn't have to point out how that's very clearly wrong.

He never said that at all, simply that by his reading, you didn't apply the specialization dice. I won't further deride you on my lack of reading comprehension. (Just because my post time was after your later post doesn't mean I saw it when composing, FYI.)

Also, I'm sorry, lots of games start with an extra 100 karma? Point me that way would you? Missions and by the book games start at 400 BP Flat.

With a Mystic Adept I can cast spells at full magic force and have some adept powers in place for improved reflexes active without the need of a spirit/focus or sustaining penalty and additional dice to defend from spells (spell resistance power), this gives me a wider availability for ways to take down a mage.

The reference to spirit type is for using a summoned/bound spirit for aid sorcery if you don't have an ally spirit. They must be of the correct type for your tradition. Because a spirit of man is combat for some, detection for some, illusion for others, they only aid on the appropriate school.

So while I call it a "mage killer" it's more a gunbunny adept that has a focus on magical defense and by nature of being a mystic adept has access to the counterspell skill.

And finally

If you take a useful Mentor Spirit instead you can counterspell and get a bonus to normal casts.

You missed my entire point, didn't you? I don't have my Street Magic, so I'm not sure if there were more Mentor Spirits than just Mountain that give +2 Counterspell, but what gives you the right to determine it as being a useless Mentor?

Back to your cave, troll. You aren't worthy of a bridge.

[jimbo]

Where did you get that the attacker misses, if the defender scores enough hits? You can't miss with direct combat spells like you can with indirect ones. Either the mage can target the defender, which may be checked by a perception test, or he can't. If the mage is allowed a spellcasting roll, the spell hits, but the defender can shrug off the attack like it was nothing.

Okay, if you want to get technical the direct combat spell doesn't MISS, but it does have NO EFFECT if the defender scores EQUAL or more hits than the attacker.

I was just making a quick analogy the point of which was to highlight how odd the resistance roll for magic was as compared to toxins, bullets, etc. As far as the meat of the statements made, you are very incorrect in stating that direct spells "hit". Your statement could lead an unknowing player to think that an F5 Stunbolt cast with 5 hits would take 10 hits to resist; 5 hits to counter the caster's hits and 5 hits to resist the Force of the Stunbolt.

Nooooo. Just 5 hits vs. the caster's 5 hits and voila, no effect.

[tete]

yet another reason I don't like 4e mages (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

Yeah, just 5 hits, best of luck with that unless you have another mage... and even then...

[Lanlaorn]

I won't further deride you on my lack of reading comprehension. (Just because my post time was after your later post doesn't mean I saw it when composing, FYI.)

Let me get this straight "just because it was written doesn't mean I read it" is a defense against me criticizing your comprehensive reading skills? The rest of your post is a joke and by the way, if you're playing with "1 magic in casting and 5 in power points means I can cast as if I had 6 Magic in spellcasting" from that ridiculous FAQ entry then yes, a mystic adept is always strictly superior to a normal mage. Spell Resistance is still a waste of power points (and so are Reflexes but that's not important) since it's super easy to make yourself (and your allies) ridiculously difficult to be cast upon while getting normal things. I hope this is spelled out sufficiently for you.

[Mäx]

if you're playing with "1 magic in casting and 5 in power points means I can cast as if I had 6 Magic in spellcasting" from that ridiculous FAQ entry then yes

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
Could you please tell me whats ridiculous in the one of the few FAQ entries that is actually correct and doesn't bltantly contradict the rule book.
I don't even understand why he would have to be playing with the FAQ, considering the actual rulebook says the exact same think.

[LurkerOutThere]

The logic is this:

Specializations add to skill tests, you can find this on pg 121 of SR4A. The spell defense test is not a skill test, it's kind of it's own unique animal as we've already seen somewhat in this thread. You may take specializations in the skill as normal and that would help you with dispelling attempts although admittedly that is a lot less useful. I am fully aware this is a nitpicky distinction but it makes a twisted sort of sense in my made.

While doing some confirmation I also found this little gem on pg. 184

A protected
character must also stay within the magician’s line of sight in
order for Counterspelling to be used. Note that a magician can always
use Counterspelling to defend herself, unless surprised.

That to me implies that a suprised mage also couldn't defend their teammates if suprised even if they predeclared. I don't much care for this logic but that's how the book is.

[kzt]

You summon a f7 or so guardian spirit. This has countermagic 7 plus magical guard 7. IIRC, nothing says you can't combine them. You have it hang around and use it's countermagic and magical guard to protect your team (in addition to the assault cannon you give it). The rest of the team uses teamwork to add to the 14 dice of countermagic. And naturally, everyone on the team has countermagic, so 4 PCs at F4 means an average of 19 dice of countermagic. It gets extra special if people use edge.

[Mäx]

Specialisations aply to every test made that the skill in question is part of the dicepool.
I cant figure out how your claiming that spell defence isn't a test made for counterspelling, thats just silly beyand belife.

[Matsci]

You summon a f7 or so guardian spirit. This has countermagic 7 plus magical guard 7. IIRC, nothing says you can't combine them. You have it hang around and use it's countermagic and magical guard to protect your team (in addition to the assault cannon you give it). The rest of the team uses teamwork to add to the 14 dice of countermagic. And naturally, everyone on the team has countermagic, so 4 PCs at F4 means an average of 19 dice of countermagic. It gets extra special if people use edge.

7 dice, as all magical guard does is allow the spirit to counterspell.

If you have more than one person counterspelling, it adds as a teamwork test.

[X-Kalibur]

Let me get this straight "just because it was written doesn't mean I read it" is a defense against me criticizing your comprehensive reading skills? The rest of your post is a joke and by the way, if you're playing with "1 magic in casting and 5 in power points means I can cast as if I had 6 Magic in spellcasting" from that ridiculous FAQ entry then yes, a mystic adept is always strictly superior to a normal mage. Spell Resistance is still a waste of power points (and so are Reflexes but that's not important) since it's super easy to make yourself (and your allies) ridiculously difficult to be cast upon while getting normal things. I hope this is spelled out sufficiently for you.

It was more of a "I couldn't read it as I was composing a post thereby blinding me to post that occurred in the interim. Thanks for playing.

Also, please read the book on Mystic Adepts, the wording is quite clear. All uses other than magic linked skill tests, you use full magic rating. It goes on to specify adept powers but does not exclude spell force. Sure, I'm out 4 or 5 dice for sorcery and conjuring, but meh. The FA ruling is actually against me on this one, but that's fine because it works as errata which is out of the scope of an FAQ.

The Magic points allocated towards Magic-based skills counts for all aspects of those skills. This includes: Magic-linked skill tests (Summoning, Spellcasting, Enchanting, etc.), maximum spell Force, overcasting, etc.

This has already been beat to death but your skill tests have absolutely no connection to your maximum spell force. I'd also note that the original text still prevails in my SR4ALE, meaning it takes precedence over the FAQ.

Also, your inability to use examples and specifically counter-point doesn't help your position.

[X-Kalibur]

[editted double post]

[LurkerOutThere]

Specialisations aply to every test made that the skill in question is part of the dicepool.
I cant figure out how your claiming that spell defence isn't a test made for counterspelling, thats just silly beyand belife.

That's not what the book says, you may continue to believe that but I suggest before you continue that tack you read the actual section on specialization and the section on spell defense. I would quote you direct sections but I'm AFB.

As others have said, magical guard allows spirits to use counterspelling, it does not itself allow counterspelling.

Similarly does anyone else cap skills for spirits out at 6? I can't find anything that suggests they get a pass over the normal skill cap rules.

[Mäx]

The book says:"Specializations add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill when the specialization is applicable to the test."
So unless your saying that spelldefenfe isn't a test made for counterspelling, i cant see how you think that specialization doesn't ably for it

[LurkerOutThere]

That's pretty much what i'm saying, your counterspelling rank becomes bonus dice for someone else s spell resistance roll. If used that way it is not a counterpelling test.

[Doc Chase]

Let me get this straight "just because it was written doesn't mean I read it" is a defense against me criticizing your comprehensive reading skills?

Considering how often I myself edit my posts after posting? Yeah, it happens rather often. Down, tiger.