Can somebody explain how counterspelling works?

Eg. 1.
Two mages are throwing spells at each other.
They both have counterspelling.

Eg. 2.
The team mage is counterspelling the team hacker.
Can the mage defend himself while guarding the hacker?

Eg. 3.
The team is counterspelling for the the whole group.

Eg. 4.
The team mage is sustaining a shield spell while counterspelling.
Does the -2 for sustaining apply on the counterspelling?

2. Yes
4. I think not, no books at hand...

Counterspelling, in SR4A is mostly a freebie. You declare you are covering everyone and everything you can see and bam, they are covered. Its not an action.

BlueMax

In all cases: You add the counterspelling dice to the resistance test. So if normally the target resists with Body, now it's Body + Counterspelling. Roll the dice as normal. If it's Willpower, now it's Willpower + Counterspelling. If two Mages are protecting the same target then one adds his counterspelling skill and the rest aid him via the teamwork rules (they roll their dice and add the hits as a modifier to the primary actor's skill).

So:
1. See Above.
2. Yes, the Mage always is counterspelling for himself even if he's completely unaware of the spell being cast.
3. The Mage has to spend a free action on his turn to protect everyone else and they must be in LoS of him, then See Above.
4. I don't know actually! I don't think so but I'd have to check and can't at the moment. It would be silly if it worked on things like this and damage in general (how does sustaining a spell make your body and armor weaker?) but it may be worded something like "all tests" and I just can't recall.

1) They both get their full Counterspell to their rolls.

2 and 3)



4) I'm having problems locating the rule, but I remember reading that the only thing the Sustaining Penalty does not count against is Damage Resistance Tests, which a Counterspelling Test is not.

Cool.
So at the very least, the mage would never need to declare that he is defending himself, but he would need to declare that he is defending his team at the beginning of the round.

I wasn't sure if counterspelling worked like the default dodge you get on melee attack.
For example, you don't need to declare that you're dodging vs. a melee attack (unless you're on full defense).

So you always use your full counterspelling rating to resist spells (sustaining/wound penalties clarification pending).
If three mages were attacking one in the same initiative pass, the lone mage would always get his full counterspelling defense roll.
It wouldn't decrease like reaction or dodge for each additional attack that initiative pass?

Uhh. Yes?

You still take wound penalties and sustaining penalties, but other than that I don't believe it reduces like being attack multiple times in melee/ranged combat. A Spell Resistance Opposed Test is different from an Opposed Combat Test, except in the case of Indirect Combat Spells.

Although...in the case of direct spells, there is no damage resist test, just the opposed resist test.
So, if I get hit with a manabolt, the only roll I get is a counterspelling + body opposed.
There is no damage resist test.
Would wound penalties apply to the example above?

Normally yes.

Basically you always get a personal. "Not the FACE!" magic test with counterspelling for your own personal use. Anything else takes at least a free action to do so which means that the best mages in combat are the quiet ones.

Yes, and I believe you can add Counterspelling to that as well. I'd have to double-check that though, but I believe it's for helping evade any spell.

Definitely part of the problem is that out of all the "Resistance" tests (damage in real world, matrix damage, toxins, etc.) it's easy to see the dr roll is unaffected by wounds, sustaining, etc. But spell resistance is (of course) the exception wherein it is a combined "dodge/damage resistance" affect. More hits than attacker? He misses. Fewer hits than attacker, it becomes soak.

I don't recall seeing anything in the rules that clearly states spell resistance is damage resistance, but my inclination would be that magician's counterspelling dice would be unaffected by wounds or sustaining.

Yeap, its worded as "all other tests", only test it said to not apply is the spellcasting+willpower(2) test to avoid dropping the sustained spell if the casters consentration is disrupted.

But does he have to spend it each turn he wants to counterspell, or just declare counterspelling once?

Each turn, now a sane and reasonable GM would only require you to actually state it once so long as you don't do something that consumes all your actions, say casting a spell of your own and talking to your team at the same time.

I would say that for the purpose of defense, that counterspelling is not affected by wound modifiers or sustaining. But for the purpose of dispelling a sustained spell, it would be affected. That's just my gut interpretation though.



This quite clearly implies this to be part of the resistance test, which as we know, are never modified by wound modifiers at the very least.

Where did you get that the attacker misses, if the defender scores enough hits? You can't miss with direct combat spells like you can with indirect ones. Either the mage can target the defender, which may be checked by a perception test, or he can't. If the mage is allowed a spellcasting roll, the spell hits, but the defender can shrug off the attack like it was nothing.

If the mage is not aware that a spell is being cast at the group, do they still get to counterspell?

Wondering how counterspelling should be applied to surprise attacks, and/or mind control / mood manipulation spells.

What about group (AOE) spells like Mob Mood?

Honestly we're getting into read the manual territory here. As long as they have declared they are actively performing spell defense and havn't done soemthing to prevent that, using up all their actions, they get to add the defense even to spells they are not aware of. Mages always get to add spell defense, it's just built into their nature.

I don't think it's every round. The book says "Note that counterspelling is not "used up" after it defends against a spell - it continues to protect the designated characters against other spells until the magician decides to end it." I believe that means that it's a free action to "set" your counterspell targets, and that it sticks until people leave line of sight or you take another free action to change it.

Yes... once declared it automagically goes against all spells, even if you are not aware of them.

When your team is hit by a group spell you roll your counterspell dice once and add the hits to all personal resistance tests. (As far as i know)

No, that's not how it works. It is IIRC a flat bonus to the roll if you have only one mage counterspelling for you. It is a roll if there is more then one mage involved. It's kind of a wierd mechanic but it does save a signifigant amount of dice rolling.

@UmaroIV: I see where your coming from but I can't buy into it. I can't predict writer intent but from both a power standpoint and a logic one I think if they'd intended that they would have required no declaration at all just a check in the spell resistance to see if any mages wanted to be counterspelling.

"Mages always get to add spell defense, it's just built into their nature."

I'm still not 100% on this though.
Does personal counterspelling act like a passive dodge check?
You don't have to declare that you are dodging, you just roll reaction and dodge.
However, sustaining a spell or taking wound penalties would affect the passive dodge roll.

So...is counterspelling affected by sustaining or wound penalties or is it like damage reduction which is never affected by those modifiers?

You know i'd never realized that damage reduction isn't affected by modifiers, having said that I think I'll keep it that way for my home game.

Actually, if you have more than 1 mage on counterspell duty it becomes a teamwork test. Which I believe means you get the higher counterspell and the other guy rolls his counterspell and adds his hits to the total bonus.

This whole exercise makes me want to go back to working on my "mage killer" mystic adept.

High counterspelling is easy, you don't need to be some tricked out mystic adept. Things that are often overlooked, a Mentor's Spirit bonus to a certain spell school applies to the entire sorcery group, i.e. Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting and Counterspelling. Similarly a Spirit's Aid Sorcery affects all 3 in the sorcery group, so Ally Spirits which can Aid Sorcery 24/7 are amazing. And of course the shielding metamagic is terrific.

Personally I'd specialize counterspelling in either combat or manipulation and get a mentor spirit that boosts the other, but let's say you double up here. Then starting with a humble 4 counterspelling skill you can have +2 specialization +2 Mentor Spirit, +3-6 Shielding, +3-6 Ally Spirit. Plus a power focus depending on your interpretation of some clumsy line of text. So ignoring the focus, anywhere from 14 to 20 additional resistance dice depending on the maturity of the Mage. Considering most NPC dice pools and the target still gets to add Body/Willpower, maybe some visibility modifiers screw the enemy mage, and you're extremely well set up on defense.

And at very minimal cost IMO since it's 1 metamagic and getting an Ally Spirit which is just useful and cool in general.

As far as I can tell from the rules, specialization does not add dice for counter spelling. It's one very often overlooked section of the rules.

As a house rule, if the -2 dice penalty existed, I would argue that it was on the Counterspelling dice only (ie out distracted and thus can't deflect spell energy as well as you could with total concentration). This would mean it is never a bad thing to declare counterspelling (it just may be useless for some people in certain situations).

That being said, SR has always had in the rules that penalties never apply to damage reduction tests, so I would say the -2 dice penalty doesn't apply to Counterspelling in this situation.

Are you arguing that you can't specialize your counterspelling skill? I shouldn't have to point out how that's very clearly wrong.

Interpreting it to be that you have to spend a free action every Action Phase doing it has other strange effects, though, like making Centering a terrible metamagic (since you wouldn't be able to Center and Counterspell at the same time).

It doesn't make centering less powerfull it just forces you to make choices, centering should not be "free dice" anyway. I'm not arguing that you can't specialize countspelling, the point I'm making is your not rolling your specialty when folks are adding the dice to resist spells, it is something that falls outside the normal scope of the specialization effect.

Personally in my experience actually forcing people to pick defense(counterspelling) or offense (centering) seems to work well both thematically and mechanically at my tables.

What are you talking about, you add your counterspell dice pool to your ally's dice pool. Specialization modifies that dice pool and it works. It doesn't matter who physically rolls the dice in-game it's you using ("rolling") your skill for the benefit of another. And specialization, counterspell foci, shielding foci and whatever else all apply.

Where did he actually say that? Please re-read his statement.

Also, the exact text states - For spell defense, Counterspelling dice are added to each protected defender’s dice
pool. - Sounds to me like specialization works just fine, but you only get the +2 dice to that school of magic.

Now for the next part.



Mentor Spirits - why not just take one that gives a +2 counterspell bonus instead? That way it applies to all schools.

Aid sorcery/ ally spirit - now you're talking about a large investment of karma in an ally spirit. Also - With Counterspelling, the spell being countered must be of the appropriate type. Food for thought there. Meaning a hermetic needs a bound fire for combat counterspell, etc

Shielding Metamagic - again, karma expenditure that for most mages is better served elsewhere and Mystic Adepts can still qualify for it. Same with the Ally spirit.

I'm sorry, what was your point again?

My point was that you can make a "mage killer" with any mage trivially without the need of some kind of pimped out mystic adept. My point wasn't that a mystic adept can't do it, it's that you don't need a mystic adept at all and just getting normal things, such as initiating and an ally spirit, gives you a ridiculous defense.

Also?
1. If you take a useful Mentor Spirit instead you can counterspell and get a bonus to normal casts.
2. An ally spirit isn't restricted to a specific spell type and they're an extremely useful karma investment, you'd be getting much more than the counterspelling dice.
3. It's one initiation, and there aren't as many useful ones as you imply. Get it 3rd or 4th if you want to wait, the point is that it's there.

All told, even after multiple initiations, getting the ally spirit, etc., we're talking ~100 karma at most, not a small sum but something a lot of people even start their games at (e.g. 400 BP +100 karma).

The first part of your post is completely idiotic so you'll have to guide me through it:



Right here:



Specialization clearly adds dice, so the only logical explanation is he's saying you can't specialize. He clarified later that he was saying you don't get the dice since "you're not rolling your specialty", whatever that means. I still disagreed and gosh, the next part of your post concurs:



Obviously you only get the +2 to the chosen specialty. Thanks for agreeing with what I was saying and directly contradicting the earlier poster who said specialization does not add dice.

P.S. Either work on your reading comprehension or stop being a jackass, whatever the hell your post was supposed to be was just embarrassing. You've extremely hostile for no reason while... agreeing with me? Um, ok.

I don't have a sheet in front of me. Isn't Counterspelling its own skill?

edit: Wait, durr. Yes it is. You'd then specialize in what, counterspelling schools?

Yep.

You can stop making me laugh any time you want.

You stated
He never said that at all, simply that by his reading, you didn't apply the specialization dice. I won't further deride you on my lack of reading comprehension. (Just because my post time was after your later post doesn't mean I saw it when composing, FYI.)

Also, I'm sorry, lots of games start with an extra 100 karma? Point me that way would you? Missions and by the book games start at 400 BP Flat.

With a Mystic Adept I can cast spells at full magic force and have some adept powers in place for improved reflexes active without the need of a spirit/focus or sustaining penalty and additional dice to defend from spells (spell resistance power), this gives me a wider availability for ways to take down a mage.

The reference to spirit type is for using a summoned/bound spirit for aid sorcery if you don't have an ally spirit. They must be of the correct type for your tradition. Because a spirit of man is combat for some, detection for some, illusion for others, they only aid on the appropriate school.

So while I call it a "mage killer" it's more a gunbunny adept that has a focus on magical defense and by nature of being a mystic adept has access to the counterspell skill.

And finally
You missed my entire point, didn't you? I don't have my Street Magic, so I'm not sure if there were more Mentor Spirits than just Mountain that give +2 Counterspell, but what gives you the right to determine it as being a useless Mentor?

Back to your cave, troll. You aren't worthy of a bridge.

Okay, if you want to get technical the direct combat spell doesn't MISS, but it does have NO EFFECT if the defender scores EQUAL or more hits than the attacker.

I was just making a quick analogy the point of which was to highlight how odd the resistance roll for magic was as compared to toxins, bullets, etc. As far as the meat of the statements made, you are very incorrect in stating that direct spells "hit". Your statement could lead an unknowing player to think that an F5 Stunbolt cast with 5 hits would take 10 hits to resist; 5 hits to counter the caster's hits and 5 hits to resist the Force of the Stunbolt.

Nooooo. Just 5 hits vs. the caster's 5 hits and voila, no effect.

yet another reason I don't like 4e mages

Yeah, just 5 hits, best of luck with that unless you have another mage... and even then...

Let me get this straight "just because it was written doesn't mean I read it" is a defense against me criticizing your comprehensive reading skills? The rest of your post is a joke and by the way, if you're playing with "1 magic in casting and 5 in power points means I can cast as if I had 6 Magic in spellcasting" from that ridiculous FAQ entry then yes, a mystic adept is always strictly superior to a normal mage. Spell Resistance is still a waste of power points (and so are Reflexes but that's not important) since it's super easy to make yourself (and your allies) ridiculously difficult to be cast upon while getting normal things. I hope this is spelled out sufficiently for you.

Could you please tell me whats ridiculous in the one of the few FAQ entries that is actually correct and doesn't bltantly contradict the rule book.
I don't even understand why he would have to be playing with the FAQ, considering the actual rulebook says the exact same think.

The logic is this:

Specializations add to skill tests, you can find this on pg 121 of SR4A. The spell defense test is not a skill test, it's kind of it's own unique animal as we've already seen somewhat in this thread. You may take specializations in the skill as normal and that would help you with dispelling attempts although admittedly that is a lot less useful. I am fully aware this is a nitpicky distinction but it makes a twisted sort of sense in my made.

While doing some confirmation I also found this little gem on pg. 184

That to me implies that a suprised mage also couldn't defend their teammates if suprised even if they predeclared. I don't much care for this logic but that's how the book is.

You summon a f7 or so guardian spirit. This has countermagic 7 plus magical guard 7. IIRC, nothing says you can't combine them. You have it hang around and use it's countermagic and magical guard to protect your team (in addition to the assault cannon you give it). The rest of the team uses teamwork to add to the 14 dice of countermagic. And naturally, everyone on the team has countermagic, so 4 PCs at F4 means an average of 19 dice of countermagic. It gets extra special if people use edge.

Specialisations aply to every test made that the skill in question is part of the dicepool.
I cant figure out how your claiming that spell defence isn't a test made for counterspelling, thats just silly beyand belife.

7 dice, as all magical guard does is allow the spirit to counterspell.

If you have more than one person counterspelling, it adds as a teamwork test.

It was more of a "I couldn't read it as I was composing a post thereby blinding me to post that occurred in the interim. Thanks for playing.

Also, please read the book on Mystic Adepts, the wording is quite clear. All uses other than magic linked skill tests, you use full magic rating. It goes on to specify adept powers but does not exclude spell force. Sure, I'm out 4 or 5 dice for sorcery and conjuring, but meh. The FA ruling is actually against me on this one, but that's fine because it works as errata which is out of the scope of an FAQ.


This has already been beat to death but your skill tests have absolutely no connection to your maximum spell force. I'd also note that the original text still prevails in my SR4ALE, meaning it takes precedence over the FAQ.

Also, your inability to use examples and specifically counter-point doesn't help your position.

[editted double post]

That's not what the book says, you may continue to believe that but I suggest before you continue that tack you read the actual section on specialization and the section on spell defense. I would quote you direct sections but I'm AFB.

As others have said, magical guard allows spirits to use counterspelling, it does not itself allow counterspelling.

Similarly does anyone else cap skills for spirits out at 6? I can't find anything that suggests they get a pass over the normal skill cap rules.

The book says:"Specializations add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill when the specialization is applicable to the test."
So unless your saying that spelldefenfe isn't a test made for counterspelling, i cant see how you think that specialization doesn't ably for it

That's pretty much what i'm saying, your counterspelling rank becomes bonus dice for someone else s spell resistance roll. If used that way it is not a counterpelling test.

Considering how often I myself edit my posts after posting? Yeah, it happens rather often. Down, tiger.