What's the point of melee? Options

[Acme]

Exactly. The point of melee is just the same point as many of the other things in the game and the universe. Because it's there to give you another option, to make your story interesting and not just another shoot-em-up. I think people seem to lose that when they start breaking everything down to stats and efficiency models. Sometimes things can be just in there to make it cool.

To make an analogy, it's like a 50's Caddilac. They may have been huge, overweight land barges that couldn't steer very well and had gas mileage of a SUV, but hey, they're still cool and people want them for their collections.

[CanRay]

And Stun Batons and such are useful!

[toturi]

Sometimes things can be just in there to make it cool.

Yes. Your character's corpse will be cool too.

[Acme]

Yes. Your character's corpse will be cool too.

Wow, for someone who's got the Zeroth Law in his sig...

[CanRay]

Yes. Your character's corpse will be cool too.

Hey, another reason for Melee?

Because it's hard to get firearms into Prison, but shanks and clubs?

[BlueMax]

Hey, another reason for Melee?

Because it's hard to get firearms into Prison, but shanks and clubs?

Magic >> Shanks and clubs.

Magic, is there anything it can't do?

And I love getting TMs into prison
"Umm Jeff, why did all the gates open?"

BlueMax

[CanRay]

Magic >> Shanks and clubs.

Magicians have a hard time in prison. They usually spend their time Magemasked, drugged, or other such problems.

If they don't have implants put into them to kill their Essence and magic ability.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yeah, but Tyson is Strength 6, Boxing: 6 and you're like Body 3, so that's really no surprise, heh. The bottom line is, Shadowrun's combat system isn't tethered too strongly in reality. It's a game element designed to facilitate cinematic style battles. It's ridiculously hard to model real world combat into a game. So most games don't really even try. Shadowrun was one of them.

The problem is the melee combat system is not in any way facilitating cinematic style battles. I don't remember very many movies where the hero takes movie terms 6+ passes to beat down a rent a cop.

[BlueMax]

Magicians have a hard time in prison. They usually spend their time Magemasked, drugged, or other such problems.

If they don't have implants put into them to kill their Essence and magic ability.

If identified and not turned. Magic is rare right? I would rather turn a mage to my side. Or at least to my cause....

Assume the characters are not railroaded into prison, the mage could prepare an attempt at masking.

Bluemax

[Shinobi Killfist]

Magicians have a hard time in prison. They usually spend their time Magemasked, drugged, or other such problems.

If they don't have implants put into them to kill their Essence and magic ability.

That is assuming they know you are a mage, masking might save a mage there. But yes, usually they are too jumped up on drugs, loud noises, sleep deprivation etc to throw much mojo. And I suspect a prison has a nasty background count by default. My interpretation of things though is that implanting them up to kill there magic is rare. It is probably due to that basically being a way to tell the player/character re-roll instead of run a prison escape scene, or get a deal from the prison to do them a job for freedom like DCs Suicide Squad

[CanRay]

IIRC, they do the implant thing if the Magician is going to be away for a long time. Cheaper than keeping them drugged all the time, and more reliable.

Miss one dose... And there's a big hole where the wall used to be.

[Shinobi Killfist]

IIRC, they do the implant thing if the Magician is going to be away for a long time. Cheaper than keeping them drugged all the time, and more reliable.

Miss one dose... And there's a big hole where the wall used to be.

Well technically it is only more reliable if the persons magic is less than 6. IF my magic is 7 and you put 5.99 worth of essence crap in me I still have 1 magic, which you can eventually up through initiation to 4 or 5 etc. Don't mage cuffs zap you when ever you try to use magic, I can see a implanted version of those, or cells rigged for it. It wont really drop your magic much, but its a kind of permanent way to stop magic.

[Yerameyahu]

Whoa. Did you seriously say it's hard to intimidate with a firearm? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Emy]

Because it's hard to intimidate with a firearm.

You start cutting pieces off with a big fraggin' knife, and not only do you have an ear for your collection...

"I was goin' ta get an ear, too..." - Jayne.

"Yeah, little bit of pain never hurt anybody. If you know what I mean. Also, I think knives are a good idea. Big, fuck-off shiny ones. Ones that look like they could skin a crocodile. Knives are good, because they don't make any noise, and the less noise they make, the more likely we are to use them. Shit 'em right up. Makes it look like we're serious. Guns for show, knives for a pro."

[CanRay]

Whoa. Did you seriously say it's hard to intimidate with a firearm? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Harder. Unless it's a very impressive firearm, or you're dealing with a civilian, they've probably had so many pulled on them that you need to shoot them to make them pay attention.

Pull a knife, and let their imagination of what you're going to do, do the rest.

"Yeah, little bit of pain never hurt anybody. If you know what I mean. Also, I think knives are a good idea. Big, fuck-off shiny ones. Ones that look like they could skin a crocodile. Knives are good, because they don't make any noise, and the less noise they make, the more likely we are to use them. Shit 'em right up. Makes it look like we're serious. Guns for show, knives for a pro."

Someone who packs a knife to a gunfight is either a fool or very good.

Of course, the best is to bring both.

And grenades.

Keep your options open.

[Smokeskin]

Exactly. The point of melee is just the same point as many of the other things in the game and the universe. Because it's there to give you another option, to make your story interesting and not just another shoot-em-up. I think people seem to lose that when they start breaking everything down to stats and efficiency models. Sometimes things can be just in there to make it cool.

I totally agree. But RAW keeps that option exceptionally expensive, which is the problem imo.

[NetWraith]

Or just duct taping a knife to the end of their assault rifle. Or taping an ares predator to that monosword you keep under the lined coat. Best of both worlds imho

I actually went with duel Ares Pred 4's modded for melee hardening and Ares FireFight and Krav Maga martial arts thats the best of both worlds

[Yerameyahu]

Psh. Unless they're tied to a chair, a gun is always vastly scarier.

[Saint Hallow]

Street Samurai A goes into a corp bar and gets into a fight with a salaryman...

a. he punches the corp and breaks the guy's jaw. police go in and street samurai is charged with drunk & disorderly, and assault. jail time and a fine.
b. he shoots the corp and breaks the guy's jaw. police go in and shoot the street samurai. the samurai is charged with felony possesion of a firearm, attempted murder (or manslaughter), felony endangering the public, drunk & disorderly, and a bunch of other crimes.

When using a fireamrs, the scale/level of violence (and repercussions) jump way up. So, yes firearms are more deadly than melee... but sometimes the message or level of violence you wanna perpetrate doesn't need to go that far up and extreme.

Burn Notice is a good source of this. Sometimes bringing in heavy weapons and firearms moves the pace of the plan faster than desired.

Just my .02.

[Bazzek]

Harder. Unless it's a very impressive firearm, or you're dealing with a civilian, they've probably had so many pulled on them that you need to shoot them to make them pay attention.

I would say, walk up, pull a simple, small, not so scary looking pistol... blow a hole in his or her knee. And then you ask a question while threatening the other knee, ankle, wrist, hand, foot or genitalia, bet your arse they will want to answer.

In other words, firearms are scary just as easily. And if you get a knife out, use it or i would laugh at you, even when tied to a chair. Now when you start swinging, somehow my resolve falters... Same with a gun, not using it and i laugh, shooting out my knee and I may change my mind (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by Bazzek: Aug 14 2010, 03:02 PM

[BlueMax]

Street Samurai A goes into a corp bar and gets into a fight with a salaryman...

a. he punches the corp and breaks the guy's jaw. police go in and street samurai is charged with drunk & disorderly, and assault. jail time and a fine.
b. he shoots the corp and breaks the guy's jaw. police go in and shoot the street samurai. the samurai is charged with felony possesion of a firearm, attempted murder (or manslaughter), felony endangering the public, drunk & disorderly, and a bunch of other crimes.

When using a fireamrs, the scale/level of violence (and repercussions) jump way up. So, yes firearms are more deadly than melee... but sometimes the message or level of violence you wanna perpetrate doesn't need to go that far up and extreme.

Burn Notice is a good source of this. Sometimes bringing in heavy weapons and firearms moves the pace of the plan faster than desired.

Just my .02.

We all see Shadowrun differently.. That's part of the problem. I read your example and think...

By Corp bar do you mean...
A. A bar run by the corporation the salaryman works for?
B. A bar run for salarymen by a third party (usually a subsidiary of one corp or another)?
C. A bar in the barrens salarymen visit to act tough?

In anything but C, things don't go well for the runner. Especially if its A and MCT turf (MCT runs the fake sin, find its fake.. runner dead). Or B and Organized Crime Turf.(Being that Organized Crime is really efficient. Broken jaws are not good business and the runner doesn't have a family or corp to miss him.) As for C, heck the cops don't even show up.

As for Burn Notice, its totally awesome. However, it occurs in a civilized world and not Shadowrun. AEG had a good game that would fit Burn Notice but its early and pre coffee so I can't remember the name.

BlueMax

[Yerameyahu]

What's a runner doing in a corp bar? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (Obviously, either shooting people or breaking jaws…)

[Whipstitch]

Harder. Unless it's a very impressive firearm, or you're dealing with a civilian.

Please. This topic is crazy subjective. Speaking with any authority on the intimidation value of one vs. the other is honestly a li'l silly. I'm not afraid of guns in general and have spent my entire life around them, but I have had one pointed at me before and frankly, I was more than a li'l concerned. Intimidation is largely a matter of displaying intent and ability. A gun can certainly lend some credibility as ably as a knife can.

[CanRay]

What's a runner doing in a corp bar? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (Obviously, either shooting people or breaking jaws…)

Or blending in and getting Intel.

Or working on Pornomancy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Acme]

Please. This topic is crazy subjective.

You just completely hit the nail on the head. That's what I've been trying to say. The worth or worthlessness of anything in the game is up to the individual. YMMV.