What's the point of melee? Options

[Yerameyahu]

Sounds like a ton of optimization just for that.

[WyldKnight]

Just for disarm? No, that was just my favorite thing to do with it AND a good way to make unarmed useful. If all the person can do is shoot a gun and you take the gun away from them how do they fight? If they have a second gun that's not hard to take away either and that's only if I didn't kill him with his own gun before he had a chance to take out the second one. I won't explain the background but I fought our groups Gunslinger adept and ended the fight by taking both of his revolvers (he didn't think a gunslinger needed unarmed) and then beating him to death with them. Sure I used blunt but it's still a melee skill. The point is Unarmed isn't exactly the smartest thing to specialize in UNLESS you turn the battlefield to your advantage.

Close the distance using cover and distractions and suddenly your the scariest thing on the battlefield as the enemy can't shoot you without shooting their friend and you use their friend as a shield to get closer to them. Take the enemies weapon and either use it against them or just throw it away and begin beating them at something they aren't prepped for. With very little optimization you can easily hit for 9 DV. But like all builds they have their uses.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Hmm, I like that house rule of having a skill as prereq to a martial art.

Along those lines, how about these as house rules?

- Add the appropriate ranged weapon skill (including specialization if that applies) to the ranged reaction / reaction + dodge. Silly in character reasoning? A character wouldn't try to avoid the projectiles from a Longarm, particularly a shotgun, the same way they would the other firearms (skills), I would think.

- If skilled at all in a melee skill, change the melee from a complex action to a simple action. Silly in character reasoning? A character trained with the muscle memory for melee is going to do it faster than someone who has to think about their actions more actively - sure, perhaps not nearly as fast as someone pulling a trigger, but damn it, file this silly idea under the rule of cool and fun.

Going to leave how horribly broken those ideas might be game mechanically up to those who understand the full repercussions better than I.

>>>

As far as the OP goes, I too have encountered the problem of characters with more IPs than others on the team having the spotlight heavy on them in combat as a player of the higher IP character. It wasn't a particularly fun experience when the GM thought I was being munchkin with my character which I found odd for a whole host of reasons. Ever since I have wondered why that GM couldn't have seen their way to perhaps creating some scenario where the other characters could shine, you know perhaps not focus so heavily on combat being the end all be all to a role playing game. But that all depends on how the GM sets the stage and the players making choices that don't all lead to combat being the forgone response of the NPCs. *shrug*

[Kruger]

You created a min/maxed character for combat, and you couldn't figure out why the GM couldn't find a way not to focus the game on combat?

Heh.

[CanadianWolverin...]

You created a min/maxed character for combat, and you couldn't figure out why the GM couldn't find a way not to focus the game on combat?

Heh.

Yup. There are other characters than just mine, comes with the territory of being a part of a runner team. And when the team gets a job to steal this or that, why is it that the hacker's game plan is wear a sniper rifle in public and start taking pot shots at the sec forces before we even recon the target?

Just because I make a character that is good at a particular area of combat doesn't mean that from an in character perspective I think that character even wants to have to blow away sec forces, to leave that as a last resort to keep the heat off or effectively accomplish that task if that is the part of the team he was hired on to do. I'd rather not have a character who is just another mindless murderer on speed.

So, just saying, is it really the fault of the multi-IP character if they get a lot of the spot light if the other characters and GM's setting defaults to combat an inordinately large amount of the time when there are many other options available to bring the setting to life and have the non-melee/ranged combat prepped and specialized characters get their share of the spotlight of cool shit we imagined they did in the game the other night?

[Yerameyahu]

Who cares about spotlight-sharing issues? Your group needs to sit down figure out what's fun for all of you; that's always the answer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanadianWolverin...]

Who cares about spotlight-sharing issues? Your group needs to sit down figure out what's fun for all of you; that's always the answer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Emphasis mine. That doesn't make any sense to me, even if your group all find combat to be the end all be all fun time but then make types of characters who don't excel in combat as much as some of the others, don't you think it is kind of inevitable that it will seem like a select number of characters who do excel in combat will come of as the lead(s) in this particular action fest? And even heavy combat oriented teams benefit from a range of specializations that support the heavy weaponry - so who is the character / player that is going to be left holding the bag for the other roles seen as ancillary to the combat?

Spotlight sharing issues are pretty much the emphasis of everyone having fun, including the GM. IMHO, having a multi-specialist team and varied setting should actually be easier for the whole table to have a fun time with.

[Yerameyahu]

No. I meant that you're asking the wrong question. It's not about spotlight, it's about the group enjoying the game. If you answer *that* question, the rest will be fixed. Me and my friends, we agree: a varied team that can handle varied missions is fun. But it's not about who's shining.

[Saint Sithney]

The perception tests on silence guns in SR4 are actually pretty low, esp. with mod/integral silencers and/or subsonic ammo.

Most of those silence options only disguise the source of the sound, rather than the existence, so dudes will still hear a muffled gunshot, but not be able to pinpoint it to save their life... often literally.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Most of those silence options only disguise the source of the sound, rather than the existence, so dudes will still hear a muffled gunshot, but not be able to pinpoint it to save their life... often literally.

I don't know... -9 to -12 is often enough to remove any chance of hearing a silenced shot at all...

[Yerameyahu]

Well, there are only 3 silencing options that I can recall (silencer/suppressor, electronic firing, and subsonic ammo). The first do this: "It applies a –4 dice pool modifier to Perception Tests to notice the weapon’s use or locate the weapon’s firer." That's notice *or* locate. The second only mentioned locating. The third is: "Subsonic ammunition applies a –1 dice pool modifier on all Perception Tests to notice the weapon’s use or locate the firing position."

So, 66% (most) disguise the existence *and* location, while 33% affect only location (and there's no good reason why that's the case, instead of simply affecting both). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) So, a silenced subsonic round electronically fired gives up to a -8 to notice, -9 to locate. That's big enough to constitute auto-failure, especially if you're taking into account -2 'Distracted', -2/-3 'Out of Vicinity'/'Far Away', -2 'Interfering Sound' and the base Threshold of 2 for silenced gunfire. They'd need like 25 dice! (I guess: -16, and 3 hits needed?) Definitely not '1 mile' of alerting people, anyway. (Obviously, I'm describing the best possible situation; unsilenced point-blank gunfire with a direct observer is a little more obvious, ha!)

Ha, Tymeaus, obviously I took 1 minute too long typing this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, there are only 3 silencing options that I can recall (silencer/suppressor, electronic firing, and subsonic ammo). The first do this: "It applies a –4 dice pool modifier to Perception Tests to notice the weapon’s use or locate the weapon’s firer." That's notice *or* locate. The second only mentioned locating. The third is: "Subsonic ammunition applies a –1 dice pool modifier on all Perception Tests to notice the weapon’s use or locate the firing position."

So, 66% (most) disguise the existence *and* location, while 33% affect only location (and there's no good reason why that's the case, instead of simply affecting both). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) So, a silenced subsonic round electronically fired gives up to a -8 to notice, -9 to locate. That's big enough to constitute auto-failure, especially if you're taking into account -2 'Distracted', -2/-3 'Out of Vicinity'/'Far Away', -2 'Interfering Sound' and the base Threshold of 2 for silenced gunfire. They'd need like 22 dice! Definitely not '1 mile' of alerting people, anyway. (Obviously, I'm describing the best possible situation; unsilenced point-blank gunfire with a direct observer is a little more obvious, ha!)

Ha, Tymeaus, obviously I took 1 minute too long typing this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Short and sweet is often better than detailed and long..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Psh, I'd already tried that! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Psh, I'd already tried that! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Touche... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Mäx]

You have an optimized cyberarm for unarmed combat, but you -didn't- pump its Agility up to 9?

Considering the fact that you avarage the stats, one arm with agility 9 doesn't do you any good.
Unless your trying to claim that the character fights with only that one arm. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Glyph]

Emphasis mine. That doesn't make any sense to me, even if your group all find combat to be the end all be all fun time but then make types of characters who don't excel in combat as much as some of the others, don't you think it is kind of inevitable that it will seem like a select number of characters who do excel in combat will come of as the lead(s) in this particular action fest? And even heavy combat oriented teams benefit from a range of specializations that support the heavy weaponry - so who is the character / player that is going to be left holding the bag for the other roles seen as ancillary to the combat?

Spotlight sharing issues are pretty much the emphasis of everyone having fun, including the GM. IMHO, having a multi-specialist team and varied setting should actually be easier for the whole table to have a fun time with.

Honestly, if everyone likes combat, but they need a varied team - dual-specialists are not hard to pull off. You can have a combat hacker, a sammie/break-in guy, a sammie with drones, a combat mage, and a combat-oriented adept who is also a decent face.

[toturi]

Spotlight sharing issues are pretty much the emphasis of everyone having fun, including the GM. IMHO, having a multi-specialist team and varied setting should actually be easier for the whole table to have a fun time with.

Spotlight issues come into play when everyone thinks that having the spotlight is fun. If I don't want the spotlight, then I don't care if the other guy actually has it all the time.

[Whipstitch]

Honestly, if everyone likes combat, but they need a varied team - dual-specialists are not hard to pull off. You can have a combat hacker, a sammie/break-in guy, a sammie with drones, a combat mage, and a combat-oriented adept who is also a decent face.

It's also worth noting that unless you do something really dumb or have a GM who is really into non-sensical levels of escalation you won't usually need the tweaked 15+ Automatics dice pool on your samurai either if everyone else in the group is dodgey/tough enough to stick their necks out a bit and make some attacks. The penalty for having defended against previous attacks since your last action can add up quite quickly when you're talking about 3 or 4 guys tossing out 2 attacks per pass at the target. Throw in a few drones, spirits or attack animals into the mix and even a dodge monkey prime runner can take it in the pants from a fairly run-of-the-mill 10 dice after smartlink & specialization Face, particularly if wide bursts are involved. It's like a Teamwork Test to murder people even before you factor in that over enough tests anyone is likely to roll badly sooner or later.

[Emy]

Considering the fact that you avarage the stats, one arm with agility 9 doesn't do you any good.
Unless your trying to claim that the character fights with only that one arm. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

There might be a good reason to attack only with that arm, given that cyberlimbs deal P damage when used as unarmed attacks.

[Mäx]

There might be a good reason to attack only with that arm, given that cyberlimbs deal P damage when used as unarmed attacks.

Saying that the character uses the cyber hand as a weapon becouse its damage code is wholly different from claiming that he only uses that one arm to fight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Combat Mage]

The book explicitly states that you use the cyberarm's attributes if you use it for an attack. Of course it's not overly realistic because there's way more of your body involved in a good punch than just your arm but it works in game terms and it's awesome to have a high-powered mechanical arm punching holes in things so it's all good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

The book explicitly states that you use the cyberarm's attributes if you use it for an attack. Of course it's not overly realistic because there's way more of your body involved in a good punch than just your arm but it works in game terms and it's awesome to have a high-powered mechanical arm punching holes in things so it's all good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's very 6 million dollar man.
Which lets face it, was all the rage when SR first came out.

[Mäx]

The book explicitly states that you use the cyberarm's attributes if you use it for an attack. Of course it's not overly realistic because there's way more of your body involved in a good punch than just your arm but it works in game terms and it's awesome to have a high-powered mechanical arm punching holes in things so it's all good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Dammit, forgor that leading an attack with the cyber-arm part, for hole punching yeah the using the arms strenght kinda makes sense, the agility less so.
But who am i to argue with RAW, especially when it makes cyber limbs at least a little better, they after all do neeed all the help they can get.

[StealthSigma]

The real answer to the question "what's the point of melee?"

Melee is for the times when you use the Escape Artist skill.

Hypothetical situation:

My 9 Agility sniper also has 1 rank in escape artist. Our team, which consists of a pistols user, a guy that prefers to fight with his fists, a guy who prefers to fight with blades, and myself who fights with longarms/assault rifles/smgs depending on the situation. We get into a situation where death is very likely and escape is improbable. We surrender. We're captured and bound and loaded into a van for transport to X location with 1-2 guards in the van with us. During the escape, I'm wriggling my way out of the bindings. Once I am free I don't act, but give an acknowledgment to the team that I am free. The pistol and blade guy cause distractions for the two guards while I either knock out one of the guards or try to free the unarmed guy.

The point of the extraneous skills is to get your character out of situations where it is outside of its comfort zone and running at lessened effectiveness. Melee firmly falls under that category for -most- characters.

--

Someone who packs a knife to a gunfight is either a fool or very good.

Of course, the best is to bring both.

And grenades.

Keep your options open.

Tactical nuclear weapons. You gotta be sure afterall.

--

Erwin Rommel put it best when he described his bayonet charge. The man with the last bullet in his gun wins... (He was shot in the leg leading a bayonet charge in WW1).

Just gotta say, one of my Top 5 military leaders of World War II.

#5 - Omar Bradley
#4 - Otto Weyland
#3 - Isoroku Yamamoto
#2 - Erwin Rommel
#1 - George S. Patton

--

My weapons specialist would drop people with melee constantly.

Unarmed 4 + Agi 6+ Skill Group Recorder + Optimized Cyberarm for Unarmed combat = 12 dice on average without mods like ally in melee, a Tacnet, or a spec. Since most characters I fought (and most in my group) lacked unarmed when I got in close I could actually drop them rather quickly. My general tactic was using thermal smoke for cover, run up close, disarm them and either beat them senseless (6 DV so it didn't take long) or in the case of groups get close, disarm, hold their buddy like a shield, and spray them with bullets from his gun. And for the record the negative mod to my pool for disarming was only -1 after my first mission because of a martial art and then taking a Spec in said martial art. Nothing says noob like taking a persons gun and shooting them with it.

And that is why I make sure my firearms guy has every possible vision modification, including ultrasound, but we're not talking runners vs runners. This game is meant to be deadly. If you character can't reasonably take down your opponents without suffering a lot of damage, you either bunker down and let them get closer or run.

--

As far as the OP goes, I too have encountered the problem of characters with more IPs than others on the team having the spotlight heavy on them in combat as a player of the higher IP character. It wasn't a particularly fun experience when the GM thought I was being munchkin with my character which I found odd for a whole host of reasons. Ever since I have wondered why that GM couldn't have seen their way to perhaps creating some scenario where the other characters could shine, you know perhaps not focus so heavily on combat being the end all be all to a role playing game. But that all depends on how the GM sets the stage and the players making choices that don't all lead to combat being the forgone response of the NPCs. *shrug*

Agreed. I think that's a subconscious reason why I haven't put a lot of effort into gaining more than one additional IP. I regularly see myself doing 12P damage without called shots using my firearms. If I don't kill something with a single shot, it's either got a metric crapton of damage resistance or it's badly injured and stacked up on wound modifiers. When combat his, I prefer to play tactically, taking targets in the most logical order.

--

Just because I make a character that is good at a particular area of combat doesn't mean that from an in character perspective I think that character even wants to have to blow away sec forces, to leave that as a last resort to keep the heat off or effectively accomplish that task if that is the part of the team he was hired on to do. I'd rather not have a character who is just another mindless murderer on speed.

I agree with this fully. My firearms character (when looking at it from an outside perspective) would appear to be a sniper. You would think I would jump at the opportunity to open up and drop people, but I actually hate doing it. The reality is that his best utility is observation and stealth. 9 Agility, 5 Intuition, 5 Infiltration, and 4 Perception not including vision modifications, specializations, equipment, or other augments that otherwise boost the skills. I try to play as a wild card in combat and prefer to enter only when the situation tells me that the rest of the team may be overwhelmed or injured by an individual in combat.

[Semerkhet]

The problem is simple mechanics: the system thinks you actively avoid being struck in melee, so you get two stats to avoid damage; however, they think you stand still for bullets, so no one gets Reaction + Dodge. In addition, they allow one skill (Dodge) to apply to both Ranged and Melee, so everyone has it. If one combat is defended by twice the amount of dice than another, it will be inferior. It's a big screw.

I simply house-ruled the double melee defense away. All combatants in my game get the same base Reaction to defend against Ranged and Melee attacks, unless they choose Full Defense. It leveled the playing field and seemed no less arbitrary to my players than the RAW was. It's working out quite well for us.