Necromancer, Stating one up or playing as one Options

[BobChuck]

Necromancers. Summon ghosts, animate corpses, defile the dead. Bad people. I got that. I understand. Really, I do.

But one of my players really likes necromancers. Wants to make them all the time, in every game system he plays in. Speaking more generally, he likes playing "good guys that use bad guy stuff but really are good guys not anti-heroes". Yes, I know. It's somewhat silly and ridiculous. He's my brother, I'm allowed to make fun of him.

So, given that I understand it's evil and he understands it's evil and setting that aside for just a bit, how do they work, mechanically? I can't find anything that looks like a "necromancer" tradition, I can't find any actual "necromantic" spells. I'm stuck; there's no place to start, nothing that's half-way. I can't even figure out how to build a necromancer antagonist. It's actually somewhat frustrating.

Any advice?

[Neraph]

Uhh, a good guy who uses bad stuff to be a good guy typically is an anti-hero.

In any event:

1) Possession Tradition. I'd choose Black Magic for a purist, although Chaos Mages or even Hermetics can work, not to mention any of the flavorful ones like Shinto. All you have to do is change them to Possession and you're set there.

2) Corpse Cadavers and Living Dolls. This allows your Watcher Spirits to possess also.

3) Spells. One of the most "necromantic" spells is easily Preserve (page 174, Street Magic). You hit a corpse with that, then prepare it as a vessel, and you can expect 1 point of degredation per 8 months to over a year instead of 1 a week. Also, the books say nothing about hitting it with a second Preserve.

Otherwise, all you need is a thematic adjustment to other spells to make them "necromantic." Manabolt and Powerbolt take the form of bolts of blackness or pale light. Use cold elemental effects for Indirect Spells, a-la Lich King. Mist is fairly good with no change, as is Shadow. Flesh to Goo also has a particularly necromantic feel to it.

EDIT: Also it should be noted that Shadowrun does not have good and evil - only degrees of grey. Except for Shedim. They're evil.

[Dakka Dakka]

I have a bit of a problem with necromancy in SR. It does not fit with the magic of that world. Here's why IMHO:

• Magic cannot reverse death
• It has never been decided if (summoned) spirits are separate entities or products of the magicians' minds.
• There is no way to summon a specific spirit like the one of my granddad.
• Possession is much more interesting with living vessels.

[Machiavelli]

I also play some kind of necromancer, but i have to agree that SR doesn´t really offers the magic tradition to create real necros. You will have to switch to the above mentioned variants or you take another look on the existing ones. Summoning spirits is IMHO nothing else than awaking the death. Take a possession tradition and you don´t even need dead vessels. Of course you will only be able to raise the spirit of other people, your granny won´t show up if you need a guidance spirit.^^

[Neraph]

SR doesn't have real dragons or real vampires or real werewolves either - the magic of this setting shows us how thousands of years have distorted the truth around them.

What if the way to get necromancy in the game is the real way, and what we know of it is exaggerated, kind of like how werewolves are actually Infected that just have adrenaline boosts during the full moon (or really, any 3 day period during the month)?

[Dumori]

• Possession is much more interesting with living vessels.

Not really the attributes are max and the augmented max for living things for corpses as high as it will go.

[sabs]

I'm not sure why a Necromantic Tradition is hard?

Possession
Uses Spirits of Man for all the different tasks, "ghosts".
Flavor the spells

Just say that he uses prepared corpses for 'vessels'

If he tries to use a living vessel, just say no.. that's not how his tradition works.

[Neraph]

If he tries to use a living vessel, just say no.. that's not how his tradition works.

No, just say -6 to the Possession Test, just as the book says.

[sabs]

No, just say -6 to the Possession Test, just as the book says.

I suppose if he was trying to do offensive possession of a living person. That is necromantic.

But really, slipping in a bit of houserule that says that your already custom made tradition has some RP limitations isn't really the end of the world. And it creates flavor.

Something that the 4E rules tried REALLY hard to get rid of, flavor of magic based on tradition.

[Neraph]

I suppose if he was trying to do offensive possession of a living person. That is necromantic.

But really, slipping in a bit of houserule that says that your already custom made tradition has some RP limitations isn't really the end of the world. And it creates flavor.

Something that the 4E rules tried REALLY hard to get rid of, flavor of magic based on tradition.

No, I'm saying that the book states that having a spirit try to possess something not based on their tradition can cause it to take a -6 penalty to their Possession Test. I believe the example given was some witch trying to get a spirit to possess a commlink or something.

You don't need to say "absolutely not," you can just say "it's much more difficult."

[sabs]

-6 doesn't really feel that much more difficult in the days where players have 15-20 dicepools for their specialties.

[Traul]

Maybe you could negociate a bonus to drain with your GM, same as fetishes. You may only summon restricted spirits who may only possess the dead, and you gain 2 more dice to drain. SR4 got rid of the tradition special rules to make the game easier, but that is still easy to tweak to add some flavor.

[Machiavelli]

I don´t see the point. Necromancy is the raising of the dead, and if you look at common horror-movies,postergeists and other dark-entities are capable to possess living beings. Just have a look at the exorzist-movies etc. I would say such stuff is common and the basis of a necromancer besides creating zombies or raising demons.^^

[Neraph]

-6 doesn't really feel that much more difficult in the days where players have 15-20 dicepools for their specialties.

... No. The book says the Spirit gains a -6 penalty to its Possession Test. That has nothing to do with a player's dicepool.

[sabs]

Dice pool would usually be ForceX2 right?
Mm, okay -6 is a pretty big penalty for the spirit.

[Hagga]

http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Spoorn/5.html
Here's an example.

[AKWeaponsSpecial...]

So, where does the character get the name "Necromancer" from? Does he believe that he conjures the spirits of the dead for information (if so, high Binding and a spirit with the Divination optional power would be useful), or did he get it from some trid/game/pop culture combo?

If he got it from World of----erm, Fourth World Fantasy or whatever, then he could have:
Combat: Guardian (ghosts of malicious dead, spirits of death, whatever)
Manipulation: Fire (Demons? Not unheard-of in games)
Illusion: Air
Health: Guidance (Ancestor Spirits)
Detection: Man

Drain would probably be WIL+CHA, since game necro's tend to be about personal power more than anything. Possibly just use Black Magic, with different fluffs on the spirits (fire spirit appears as a flaming skeleton, water appears as a ghost of a drowned person, etc)

If they're using the dead for information, Guidance, Man, Task, Air, and Beast (animals die too, y'know) might be appropriate, along with the Dark King mentor spirit. Binding for Aid Study and similar tasks is suggested. Again, CHA+WIL might be a good idea with this one, as well, but more because he makes deals with the spirits than because he's using his strength of will to bind them to himself. Might make a good occult investigator.

[JollySkull]

Um should the necro want to use a shedim spirit because they are the walking dead. It makes sense in my mind. But if he is trying to remove his evil ways then he should be like no I study death through magic to perfect life.


Meh I am blathering.

Jolly Skull

[Grinder]

Shedim can't be summoned iirc.

[Hagga]

They can't. Even if houseruled, Shedim are bloody disgustingly good spirits.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I have a bit of a problem with necromancy in SR. It does not fit with the magic of that world. Here's why IMHO:

• Magic cannot reverse death
• It has never been decided if (summoned) spirits are separate entities or products of the magicians' minds.
• There is no way to summon a specific spirit like the one of my granddad.
• Possession is much more interesting with living vessels.

Necromancers don't reverse death they at most animate corpses or commune with spirits.
It does not matter if its been decided, all you need to do is believe it. The spirits will seem to be spirits of the dead, but who knows maybe they are fake.
Ancestor spirits have been described to summon specific spirits to some degree. Whether it actually is gran pa joe is for a debate, but the summoner seems to think so.
Possession is maybe more powerful with living vessels, I'm not sure I'd call it more interesting. Besides I see no reason why you need to use possession, spirits can manifest in the form that looks like zombies and skeletons if that is what you desire. Though if you are going more the commune with spirits route you wont be doing that anyways.

[Muspellsheimr]

Summon ghosts

Kind of.

Necromancers are traditionally magicians specializing in divination through the use of spirits - typically the deceased.

In modern times, necromancers are magicians who focus in the manipulation of life and health.

animate corpses

If you are playing Diablo II, then yes. That is only a bullshit mainstream culture aspect of this form of magic created and popularized by recent games, such as the aforementioned Diablo series or Dungeons & Dragons. If this is what the player wants to build his character around, fine. Just be clear that it is not actually a necromancer, regardless of what the character may believe.

defile the dead

Absolutely nothing about a necromancer defines this. If the character does so, whatever. It's not because he's a necromancer, it's because he defiles the dead. This is more likely if under the false impression of what a necromancer actually is, as described above.

So, given that I understand it's evil and he understands it's evil and setting that aside for just a bit, how do they work, mechanically?

Again, nothing about a necromancer makes them evil. At all. That is at best a reflection of common misunderstanding and belief.

Mechanically, a necromancer is easily doable in the system.

First: Tradition

The two most likely choices will be Black Magic or Voodoo. Black Magic is generally a better fit for a necromancer, but Voodoo is the optimal choice if the character does "animate corpses", due to being a possession tradition and a heavy mythological focus on animated dead. Another good option is a standard Hermetic mage.

In the Twisted Paths section of Street Magic, you can find (unfortuantly limited) information on Faustian mages and followers of the Path of the Dead. These are not traditions in themselves, but rather character concepts to be added to an existing tradition. Alternatively, you can use their concept as the basis for a new mechanical tradition - something rather easy to create. Rules for doing so are included in Street Magic, but basically consist of "Choose 5 of the 10 summonable spirit types & assign them each to a different spell category; Choose Possession or Materialization; Choose Drain attribute."

If designing your own tradition, one of the spirits should be Guidance, and linked to Detection spells.


Second: Spell Selection and Metamagic

The primary spell focus for a true necromancer should be on Health and Detection spells, focusing even further on Negative health effects and divination spells. Another good option is Direct Combat spells. Divining is an ideal metamagic to take early.

For a 'popular' necromancer, elemental effects and Manipulation spells are probably ideal, with a possible sub-theme in Illusion. Early metamagic selection should be Centering and Invoking.

[Tiny Deev]

Hehe, you should make him play a necromancer from the Necroscope series. There necromancers attempt to command the dead through rituals, spells, bodily mutilation and sometimes necrophilia. Anything they do to a corpse, the corpse's spirit feels it, and they freaking hate necromancers.

As soon as you tell him "Oh, well, that would require you to cut a whole in the corpse's side and put your junk in it" I'm sure he would try not to be a necromancer no more.. xD

[Ascalaphus]

Well, you've got the two sides of necromancy;

Corpse Rigging
This is easy to do in SR. Others have given examples above. Consider that historically, this wasn't such an important (or even existing) part of necromancy, but it's cool and TV made it popular I guess.

Soul Manipulation
This is troublesome in SR. It's not certain if souls exist; there is plenty of fluff that suggests they do (reincarnation, ancestor spirits), but nothing in the crunch. It's also been suggested that when people die and a ghost pops up, that ghost isn't really the soul of the deceased, but an impression made in the Astral plane by the deceased; an afterimage of a sort.
You might decide that although souls are out of reach, "spiritual necromancy" is focused on the things-that-look-like-souls, such as Free Spirits, Shedim and Shadow Spirits with a morbid bent.

Or you could take the big GM leap and decide to crunch in souls; but that could have profound influence on the game. Churches become more powerful if there's proof that souls exist, while corporations might employ necromancers to harass or interrogate the souls of deceased employees and competitors. For ideas on that, take a look at White Wolf's mini-series Orpheus.

For an interesting perspective on how the question of souls and cybertech and AIs meet, take a look at Ghost in the Shell...

[Shinobi Killfist]

Well, you've got the two sides of necromancy;

Corpse Rigging
This is easy to do in SR. Others have given examples above. Consider that historically, this wasn't such an important (or even existing) part of necromancy, but it's cool and TV made it popular I guess.

Soul Manipulation
This is troublesome in SR. It's not certain if souls exist; there is plenty of fluff that suggests they do (reincarnation, ancestor spirits), but nothing in the crunch. It's also been suggested that when people die and a ghost pops up, that ghost isn't really the soul of the deceased, but an impression made in the Astral plane by the deceased; an afterimage of a sort.
You might decide that although souls are out of reach, "spiritual necromancy" is focused on the things-that-look-like-souls, such as Free Spirits, Shedim and Shadow Spirits with a morbid bent.

Or you could take the big GM leap and decide to crunch in souls; but that could have profound influence on the game. Churches become more powerful if there's proof that souls exist, while corporations might employ necromancers to harass or interrogate the souls of deceased employees and competitors. For ideas on that, take a look at White Wolf's mini-series Orpheus.

For an interesting perspective on how the question of souls and cybertech and AIs meet, take a look at Ghost in the Shell...

.


It does not have to be the truth, just the truth as the player/tradition see it. A christian theurgist might think he is summoning an angel and it may even look like one, that does not mean its anything more than a air spirit though that looks weird due the the summoning mages belief system. There are people who summon ancestor spirits in the game, they sure as heck think its an ancestor, it looks like one, acts like one etc. and yet many people don't believe it is. Hermetics will continue to think the spirit is just an energy pattern shaped by the casters belief system for example. And

I think society on the whole is more prone to believe the hermetic with his logical scientific sounding theories than the crack pot shaman types.