Necromancers. Summon ghosts, animate corpses, defile the dead. Bad people. I got that. I understand. Really, I do.

But one of my players really likes necromancers. Wants to make them all the time, in every game system he plays in. Speaking more generally, he likes playing "good guys that use bad guy stuff but really are good guys not anti-heroes". Yes, I know. It's somewhat silly and ridiculous. He's my brother, I'm allowed to make fun of him.

So, given that I understand it's evil and he understands it's evil and setting that aside for just a bit, how do they work, mechanically? I can't find anything that looks like a "necromancer" tradition, I can't find any actual "necromantic" spells. I'm stuck; there's no place to start, nothing that's half-way. I can't even figure out how to build a necromancer antagonist. It's actually somewhat frustrating.

Any advice?

Uhh, a good guy who uses bad stuff to be a good guy typically is an anti-hero.

In any event:

1) Possession Tradition. I'd choose Black Magic for a purist, although Chaos Mages or even Hermetics can work, not to mention any of the flavorful ones like Shinto. All you have to do is change them to Possession and you're set there.

2) Corpse Cadavers and Living Dolls. This allows your Watcher Spirits to possess also.

3) Spells. One of the most "necromantic" spells is easily Preserve (page 174, Street Magic). You hit a corpse with that, then prepare it as a vessel, and you can expect 1 point of degredation per 8 months to over a year instead of 1 a week. Also, the books say nothing about hitting it with a second Preserve.

Otherwise, all you need is a thematic adjustment to other spells to make them "necromantic." Manabolt and Powerbolt take the form of bolts of blackness or pale light. Use cold elemental effects for Indirect Spells, a-la Lich King. Mist is fairly good with no change, as is Shadow. Flesh to Goo also has a particularly necromantic feel to it.

EDIT: Also it should be noted that Shadowrun does not have good and evil - only degrees of grey. Except for Shedim. They're evil.

I have a bit of a problem with necromancy in SR. It does not fit with the magic of that world. Here's why IMHO:

• Magic cannot reverse death
• It has never been decided if (summoned) spirits are separate entities or products of the magicians' minds.
• There is no way to summon a specific spirit like the one of my granddad.
• Possession is much more interesting with living vessels.

I also play some kind of necromancer, but i have to agree that SR doesn´t really offers the magic tradition to create real necros. You will have to switch to the above mentioned variants or you take another look on the existing ones. Summoning spirits is IMHO nothing else than awaking the death. Take a possession tradition and you don´t even need dead vessels. Of course you will only be able to raise the spirit of other people, your granny won´t show up if you need a guidance spirit.^^

SR doesn't have real dragons or real vampires or real werewolves either - the magic of this setting shows us how thousands of years have distorted the truth around them.

What if the way to get necromancy in the game is the real way, and what we know of it is exaggerated, kind of like how werewolves are actually Infected that just have adrenaline boosts during the full moon (or really, any 3 day period during the month)?

Not really the attributes are max and the augmented max for living things for corpses as high as it will go.

I'm not sure why a Necromantic Tradition is hard?

Possession
Uses Spirits of Man for all the different tasks, "ghosts".
Flavor the spells

Just say that he uses prepared corpses for 'vessels'

If he tries to use a living vessel, just say no.. that's not how his tradition works.

No, just say -6 to the Possession Test, just as the book says.

I suppose if he was trying to do offensive possession of a living person. That is necromantic.

But really, slipping in a bit of houserule that says that your already custom made tradition has some RP limitations isn't really the end of the world. And it creates flavor.

Something that the 4E rules tried REALLY hard to get rid of, flavor of magic based on tradition.

No, I'm saying that the book states that having a spirit try to possess something not based on their tradition can cause it to take a -6 penalty to their Possession Test. I believe the example given was some witch trying to get a spirit to possess a commlink or something.

You don't need to say "absolutely not," you can just say "it's much more difficult."

-6 doesn't really feel that much more difficult in the days where players have 15-20 dicepools for their specialties.

Maybe you could negociate a bonus to drain with your GM, same as fetishes. You may only summon restricted spirits who may only possess the dead, and you gain 2 more dice to drain. SR4 got rid of the tradition special rules to make the game easier, but that is still easy to tweak to add some flavor.

I don´t see the point. Necromancy is the raising of the dead, and if you look at common horror-movies,postergeists and other dark-entities are capable to possess living beings. Just have a look at the exorzist-movies etc. I would say such stuff is common and the basis of a necromancer besides creating zombies or raising demons.^^

... No. The book says the Spirit gains a -6 penalty to its Possession Test. That has nothing to do with a player's dicepool.

Dice pool would usually be ForceX2 right?
Mm, okay -6 is a pretty big penalty for the spirit.

http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Spoorn/5.html
Here's an example.

So, where does the character get the name "Necromancer" from? Does he believe that he conjures the spirits of the dead for information (if so, high Binding and a spirit with the Divination optional power would be useful), or did he get it from some trid/game/pop culture combo?

If he got it from World of----erm, Fourth World Fantasy or whatever, then he could have:
Combat: Guardian (ghosts of malicious dead, spirits of death, whatever)
Manipulation: Fire (Demons? Not unheard-of in games)
Illusion: Air
Health: Guidance (Ancestor Spirits)
Detection: Man

Drain would probably be WIL+CHA, since game necro's tend to be about personal power more than anything. Possibly just use Black Magic, with different fluffs on the spirits (fire spirit appears as a flaming skeleton, water appears as a ghost of a drowned person, etc)

If they're using the dead for information, Guidance, Man, Task, Air, and Beast (animals die too, y'know) might be appropriate, along with the Dark King mentor spirit. Binding for Aid Study and similar tasks is suggested. Again, CHA+WIL might be a good idea with this one, as well, but more because he makes deals with the spirits than because he's using his strength of will to bind them to himself. Might make a good occult investigator.

Um should the necro want to use a shedim spirit because they are the walking dead. It makes sense in my mind. But if he is trying to remove his evil ways then he should be like no I study death through magic to perfect life.


Meh I am blathering.

Jolly Skull

Shedim can't be summoned iirc.

They can't. Even if houseruled, Shedim are bloody disgustingly good spirits.

Necromancers don't reverse death they at most animate corpses or commune with spirits.
It does not matter if its been decided, all you need to do is believe it. The spirits will seem to be spirits of the dead, but who knows maybe they are fake.
Ancestor spirits have been described to summon specific spirits to some degree. Whether it actually is gran pa joe is for a debate, but the summoner seems to think so.
Possession is maybe more powerful with living vessels, I'm not sure I'd call it more interesting. Besides I see no reason why you need to use possession, spirits can manifest in the form that looks like zombies and skeletons if that is what you desire. Though if you are going more the commune with spirits route you wont be doing that anyways.

Kind of.

Necromancers are traditionally magicians specializing in divination through the use of spirits - typically the deceased.

In modern times, necromancers are magicians who focus in the manipulation of life and health.


If you are playing Diablo II, then yes. That is only a bullshit mainstream culture aspect of this form of magic created and popularized by recent games, such as the aforementioned Diablo series or Dungeons & Dragons. If this is what the player wants to build his character around, fine. Just be clear that it is not actually a necromancer, regardless of what the character may believe.


Absolutely nothing about a necromancer defines this. If the character does so, whatever. It's not because he's a necromancer, it's because he defiles the dead. This is more likely if under the false impression of what a necromancer actually is, as described above.


Again, nothing about a necromancer makes them evil. At all. That is at best a reflection of common misunderstanding and belief.

Mechanically, a necromancer is easily doable in the system.

First: Tradition

The two most likely choices will be Black Magic or Voodoo. Black Magic is generally a better fit for a necromancer, but Voodoo is the optimal choice if the character does "animate corpses", due to being a possession tradition and a heavy mythological focus on animated dead. Another good option is a standard Hermetic mage.

In the Twisted Paths section of Street Magic, you can find (unfortuantly limited) information on Faustian mages and followers of the Path of the Dead. These are not traditions in themselves, but rather character concepts to be added to an existing tradition. Alternatively, you can use their concept as the basis for a new mechanical tradition - something rather easy to create. Rules for doing so are included in Street Magic, but basically consist of "Choose 5 of the 10 summonable spirit types & assign them each to a different spell category; Choose Possession or Materialization; Choose Drain attribute."

If designing your own tradition, one of the spirits should be Guidance, and linked to Detection spells.


Second: Spell Selection and Metamagic

The primary spell focus for a true necromancer should be on Health and Detection spells, focusing even further on Negative health effects and divination spells. Another good option is Direct Combat spells. Divining is an ideal metamagic to take early.

For a 'popular' necromancer, elemental effects and Manipulation spells are probably ideal, with a possible sub-theme in Illusion. Early metamagic selection should be Centering and Invoking.

Hehe, you should make him play a necromancer from the Necroscope series. There necromancers attempt to command the dead through rituals, spells, bodily mutilation and sometimes necrophilia. Anything they do to a corpse, the corpse's spirit feels it, and they freaking hate necromancers.

As soon as you tell him "Oh, well, that would require you to cut a whole in the corpse's side and put your junk in it" I'm sure he would try not to be a necromancer no more.. xD

Well, you've got the two sides of necromancy;

Corpse Rigging
This is easy to do in SR. Others have given examples above. Consider that historically, this wasn't such an important (or even existing) part of necromancy, but it's cool and TV made it popular I guess.

Soul Manipulation
This is troublesome in SR. It's not certain if souls exist; there is plenty of fluff that suggests they do (reincarnation, ancestor spirits), but nothing in the crunch. It's also been suggested that when people die and a ghost pops up, that ghost isn't really the soul of the deceased, but an impression made in the Astral plane by the deceased; an afterimage of a sort.
You might decide that although souls are out of reach, "spiritual necromancy" is focused on the things-that-look-like-souls, such as Free Spirits, Shedim and Shadow Spirits with a morbid bent.

Or you could take the big GM leap and decide to crunch in souls; but that could have profound influence on the game. Churches become more powerful if there's proof that souls exist, while corporations might employ necromancers to harass or interrogate the souls of deceased employees and competitors. For ideas on that, take a look at White Wolf's mini-series Orpheus.

For an interesting perspective on how the question of souls and cybertech and AIs meet, take a look at Ghost in the Shell...

.


It does not have to be the truth, just the truth as the player/tradition see it. A christian theurgist might think he is summoning an angel and it may even look like one, that does not mean its anything more than a air spirit though that looks weird due the the summoning mages belief system. There are people who summon ancestor spirits in the game, they sure as heck think its an ancestor, it looks like one, acts like one etc. and yet many people don't believe it is. Hermetics will continue to think the spirit is just an energy pattern shaped by the casters belief system for example. And

I think society on the whole is more prone to believe the hermetic with his logical scientific sounding theories than the crack pot shaman types.

With the exception of Possession Spirits, When I created my Necromancer, this is pretty much how I went about it... Reflavoring of the Spells works out great... mechanics are the same, visual effects are a tad different... as for Spirit Types...

Well, I had
Combat: Guardian (Death Spirits); Could aslo go Earth Spirits (Zombu)
Detection: Guidance (Ghosts - Ancestor SPirits)
Health: Water (Blood/Viscera Spirits)
Illusion: Air (Ghosts - Poltergeist Spirits)
Manipulation: Man (Spectre - Malevolent Spirits)

Dark King as Mentor
Heavy on Detection, Health, and Manipulation Spells

He was a lot of fun...

Why do people think you have to have a mentor spirit? I mean they're nice, but in no way central to actually playing a mage.

The problem is that generic spirits posing as ancestors, don't really have the memories and such of those specific ancestors; you can't query them about things that you don't know. At least IIRC even Guidance spirits don't get to start with random Knowledges as skills?

I don't think he said you have to take a mentor spirit, just that he took one, likely for background and flavour.

Pretty Much, yeah... Dark King was an aspect of the way the character performed magic; and it had the benefit of actually fitting the Tradition as I wrote it up...

I happen to like the concept of a Mentor Spirit, and though I do not alwyas obtain one for my magical characters, when I do, they happen to flesh out the idea of the Character and his interpretations of the Tradition he is part of. Win/Win in my opinion...

Not stated is not the same thing as not having.

Street magic page,90 "Some spirits exhibit knowledge of concepts and conventions such as language, names, and popular culture that heavily imply
or, some will undoubtedly say, prove, that these are creations of the magician’s own mind. Paradoxical then are the documented instances where other spirits demonstrate knowledge
and memories consistent with having independently existed in a particular location or even in another world altogether for much longer periods of time."

It seems to me that they do have knowledge skills, but they do not show up since what the skills would be vary by tradition and perhaps even mentor spirit. Everything out there has knowledge skills to some degree, they just are rarely stated unless it is important to the game some how. Ancestor spirits might have more knowledge skills based on what happened when they were alive, though a spirit having trouble remembering things in not uncommon in stories. Other spirits might have more knowledge about things magical or extraplanor or maybe even current events. Your tradition, personality, mentor spirit all can have an effect on what you summon and what range of knowledge would be available to the spirit. And if need it stated out divination can cover a range of it, task and guardian spirits can learn skills that represent knowledge of the ancestor. Other areas the spirit has forgotten or is compelled not to speak of in death. So if you don't want the spirit to answer who killed you or other plot event, the spirit did not see the killer, the spirit seems terrified and refuses to answer, you can't seem to summon that particular spirit there is interference etc.

Ok.

No matter what knowledge a spirit may have, there is no way for the "necromancer" to summon a specific spirit.

Says Who? The rules are not clear on that, and if a particular spirit works better for the flavor of the game, rather than generic spirit X, then where is that prohibited?

Named spirits are encountered on many occassions, and at least some aspects of the game support that interpretation... ALL Free spirits in Canon have Names, for example... Seems like a particular spirit to me...

Scenario time!

Ok, team needs to get info out of Person A. They kill Person A, the necromancer summons up his spirit, then he commands the spirit to tell them the info (not really listed, but I'd give it a Service of 1. Then again, I wouldn't even allow it).

Make him an ex cop from the homicide squad . . i mean, what would be easier than to summon up the spirit of the dead corpse and ask it "how did you die?" and "who did it?"
He'd lose his job over it, because he would be violating so many regulations (hint, that's the supposed reason) and the fact that people would be jealous over his success rate and appalled at his methods . .
Don't think it works? read up in 6WA, it's in there. The first case solved by application of magic/summoning, the summoner summoned the spirit of the dead person and by studying it's actions and reactions figured out who the murderer was . .

And your point? You can get the exact same information out of a Mind Probe, or other Detection Spells... And well, once a team gets a reputation for such dark magic, well.........

Thanks for the Canon Reference as well Stahlseele...

No Difference...

Murder and Conjuring is easier than an opposed Test for Mind Probe or other detection spells.

But there is still no difference in end effect... Besides, Murder has its own consequences involved...

And besides, you can reduce a target's willpower a number of ways to reduce resistance to the Mind Probe. Average Spellcasting Dice Pool for a Spellcaster here on Dumpshock is in the Mid teens (Conservatively), and the average Willpower is 5 (Further reduced by Drugs or spells)... In the end, there is no contest, the Mind Probe (Or other appropriate Detection Spell) will indeed get what you are looking for.



Besides, are you really goint to tell me that you will be able to know ahead of time the power level (Force) of the "Ghost" you just created? One that, when summoned after being murdered, is highly likely to spend Edge to resist the summons (Assuming you know his true name of Course, which will be doubtful, as he would probably go by another identifier once ghosted)...

Eh, point. I just don't like the idea of being able to summon specific people. That's just too John Edwards for me.

Heheheh... Yeah, I understand the sentiment...

It is prohibited by the spirits's stats. They don't have any knowledge skills. Also the Conjuror only has the choice spirit type force and optional powers. He cannot choose anything else, IIRC not even the spirits appearance.

Unless I'm mistaken all named spirits are Free or other unsummonable spirits.

Neither do Great Dragons.

I doubt you can summon them either. The point is if you can't choose if and which knowledge is possessed by a spirit, you can't summon a specific one e.g. the spirit of Abraham Lincoln. This makes communing with the dead and summoning spirit of specific dead people, which are important parts of the necromancer concept, impossible.

You could however easily play a character believing to be a necromancer, but he is just as deluded as the psionics in SR.

Read the burning times lately?
Also, as i mentioned, it's in 6wa

But, that is all the province of the Game Master... There are no Knowledge Skills for any opponents in the books either, and yet, I would argue that they do indeed have them. They are not included because to do so would remove any input the Game Master would have into the motivations of the respective character. Everyone has Knowledge Skills (at a minimum (3x(Int+Log)), it is impossible to remove them if you expect NPC's to actually interact with the real world at all...

Just sayin'

And just because you have a Tradition that is not produced by the Developers does not mean that you cannot use real world ideas to supply a workable Tradition for Shadowrun Magic. There are rules for creating them after all, which makes any such creation Canon (at least for that table). And your comparison is invalid... Necromancy is a valid Magical Tradition... Psionics is a Scientific Application/Belief of Mind over Environment/Matter... not the same thing at all...

Additionally, it is a Canon fact that you can quest to the Astral Planes for ANY Spirits True Name... ergo, spirits have names (likely both True Names and a more common Summoning Name; it only makes sense)... As such, our useage of Summoning Names is valid and viable. You may not like that option, but it does not mean that it does not exist...

Anyways...

You got a point there.
Agreed, but a fan created tradition should not be able to do things no other tradition can. Summoning spirits of specific people is a considerable advantage IMHO.

If summonable spirits have true names, why would you go on an astral quest to acquire them? Just summon the spirit and order it to tell you.

There is no rule that keep us from designing our own 'necromancer' spells.
I would like:
Animate Dead
a bit like control actions but with restricted target (only corpses). Drain would be physical +1. range LOS, restricted -1 (maybe area +1), sustained +0, physical manipulation +0, resulting in +0 or (+2 area)
A dead body can be controlled by the caster (no orders but direct control), spellcasting hits determine hit points of the zombie and/or 'attack skill'

or
Questioning the dead:
like mind probe with restriced targed and touch range. Drain would be: mana detection +0 (maybe physical +1, it's hard to tell), touch range with restricted target -3 (only dead), invasive analyse detection +4, resulting in +1 (if phisical +2)
Spellcasting against object resistance (2 or more if longer dead or the corpse is in bad condition), Per Net hit one Yes/No question can be extracted from the decaying brain.

I don't think these spells would contradict the limitations to spellcasting but I'm interessed in your opinions.

The fluff is pretty clear on it, though

Care to elaborate? Are you contradicting Tymeaus Jalynsfein or backing him up?