 Possession and YOUR powers, As with cyberware? |
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 Aug 14 2010, 11:26 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 15-December 09 Member No.: 17,968  |
So I'm putting together a new character to try out the whole possession thing and, after settling on a rastafarian-vampire-(sukuyan)-conjurer-healer-face, I find a gap in the RAW: can the possessing spirit use the host's powers? No mention in SR4a or SM, so what do you reckon?
Possession is highly-powered as it is, so should they not work at all? Maybe it should be considered as with cyberware: automatic examples (bone lacing, regeneration) do still work automatically but anything requiring activation or control (cybergun, mist form) can't be communicated with. Then there's the channelling metamagic which allows the magician fine motor control and skill use. Should that therefore allow full access to powers? With all this in mind, has the following sillinness ever been posed before? (For it to work you do have to ignore the one-hour time limit for boosting an attribute after draining essence, but that's just plain sense since otherwise you could only do it a few times a year.) Vampire of a possession tradition, Body 5 Magic 5 Essence 5 Drain Resistance 9, Channelling metamagic Drain Essence, raising it to 12 (double natural maximum) Boost Magic by 6 to 11 (Essence drops to 6) Summon a Force 10 spirit Be possessed by spirit Vessel uses spirit's Essence and Magic ratings of 10 Drain Essence, raising it to 20 Boost Magic to 20 (Essence drops to 10) Summon a Force 20 spirit Kick out the old spirit and take in the new one Repeat You would need to keep healing the drain damage the mundane way, the Essence draining would get more and more time-consuming and since each increase in Force adds on 1/2 a box to the damage track but adds 2/3 onto the expected drain damage there is a cap on how far you can go, but theoretically this is a way for a level 1 initiate to whack their stats up to dragon-scaring levels. Now I just have to find a GM who'll allow it ... |
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Aug 14 2010, 11:31 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 4-November 09 Member No.: 17,844 |
my munchkin heart loves you... I just found the next bad guy for my campaign.
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Aug 14 2010, 11:32 PM
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#3
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
I'm pretty sure you don't use the spirit's Essence and Magic ratings for vampiring people.
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Aug 14 2010, 11:40 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 15-December 09 Member No.: 17,968 |
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 15 2010, 12:32 AM)  I'm pretty sure you don't use the spirit's Essence and Magic ratings for vampiring people. No mention in the RAW. Makes sense that it was never considered (or cut to make space). The channelling metamagic only states that the lower of the two sets of mental attributes are used when resisting mana spells and powers but otherwise it's possession as usual. RAI - Functional Essence and Magic ratings are those of the spirit Common sense - I agree with you |
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Aug 15 2010, 12:06 AM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,190 Joined: 31-May 09 From: London, UK Member No.: 17,229 |
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Aug 15 2010, 01:26 AM) since each increase in Force adds on 1/2 a box to the damage track but adds 2/3 onto the expected drain damage there is a cap on how far you can go, It also adds 2 dice to your drain pool, so that's even. You will have a problem with the Summoning test, though: each point of Force gives you 1 more die to summon and 2 more more dice for the spirit to resist. |
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Aug 15 2010, 12:51 AM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 15-December 09 Member No.: 17,968 |
QUOTE (Traul @ Aug 15 2010, 01:06 AM) It also adds 2 dice to your drain pool, so that's even. You will have a problem with the Summoning test, though: each point of Force gives you 1 more die to summon and 2 more more dice for the spirit to resist. Ah yes, you're right about the drain resistance. However you're wrong about adding two dice to the spirit's resistance - summoing is only resisted by Force, it's binding and re-binding that uses Force x 2. What would become a factor very quickly, though, is how really big spirits would use Edge. |
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Aug 15 2010, 01:29 AM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,190 Joined: 31-May 09 From: London, UK Member No.: 17,229 |
Yes, I was counting Edge for the spirit. If you didn't, how did you come up with 2/3 drain per Force point? But you're right, it's not a problem: the mage also gets 1 more Edge per point of Force, so he should always be able to use Edge on the summoning test.
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Aug 15 2010, 02:11 AM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 5-February 10 Member No.: 18,116 |
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Aug 14 2010, 06:26 PM) Possession is highly-powered as it is, so should they not work at all? Maybe it should be considered as with cyberware: automatic examples (bone lacing, regeneration) do still work automatically but anything requiring activation or control (cybergun, mist form) can't be communicated with. Then there's the channelling metamagic which allows the magician fine motor control and skill use. Should that therefore allow full access to powers? A magician channeling a spirit has access to the magician's own abilities, but not the spirit's (unless the magician spends a service normally, or has the spirit Endow her with the power). I would say that the reverse applies when the magician is possessed, but not channeling: the spirit has no access to the powers and skills of the magician. The "Possession and Vessels" sidebar on p102 of Street Magic doesn't specifically call out powers, but it does say that the spirit "does not have access to the host's knowledge, skills, or experience". Even if the spirit had access to any powers, it wouldn't necessarily know how to use the them, or even that they existed. The only exceptions would be passive/automatic things, just like the cyberware rules you pointed out. Possession is strong enough without engaging in Pun-Pun tactics--and I say that as the player of a possession-tradition conjurer. |
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Aug 15 2010, 03:02 AM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,190 Joined: 31-May 09 From: London, UK Member No.: 17,229 |
The Mage needs Channeling anyway, otherwise he cannot summon once possessed.
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Aug 15 2010, 03:23 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 347 Joined: 28-June 10 Member No.: 18,765 |
I think the spirit would have access to the vessels powers. They have access to adept powers and things like critter powers, or surge powers also work. The essence drain thing is not that much different. The GM could easily rule that the essence drain still only boosts the mages essence even though the spirit is the one using the power. Though there is no real reason to not allow this other than that it will make you ungodly powerful and other vampires would be doing it too.
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Aug 15 2010, 03:36 AM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,190 Joined: 31-May 09 From: London, UK Member No.: 17,229 |
Even Vampires are not all into mass murder. The spirit power might grow exponentially, but so does the number of victims.
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Aug 15 2010, 05:09 PM
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#12
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 |
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Aug 14 2010, 06:26 PM) So I'm putting together a new character to try out the whole possession thing and, after settling on a rastafarian-vampire-(sukuyan)-conjurer-healer-face, I find a gap in the RAW: can the possessing spirit use the host's powers? No mention in SR4a or SM, so what do you reckon? Possession is highly-powered as it is, so should they not work at all? Maybe it should be considered as with cyberware: automatic examples (bone lacing, regeneration) do still work automatically but anything requiring activation or control (cybergun, mist form) can't be communicated with. Then there's the channelling metamagic which allows the magician fine motor control and skill use. Should that therefore allow full access to powers? With all this in mind, has the following sillinness ever been posed before? (For it to work you do have to ignore the one-hour time limit for boosting an attribute after draining essence, but that's just plain sense since otherwise you could only do it a few times a year.) Vampire of a possession tradition, Body 5 Magic 5 Essence 5 Drain Resistance 9, Channelling metamagic Drain Essence, raising it to 12 (double natural maximum) Boost Magic by 6 to 11 (Essence drops to 6) Summon a Force 10 spirit Be possessed by spirit Vessel uses spirit's Essence and Magic ratings of 10 Drain Essence, raising it to 20 Boost Magic to 20 (Essence drops to 10) Summon a Force 20 spirit Kick out the old spirit and take in the new one Repeat You would need to keep healing the drain damage the mundane way, the Essence draining would get more and more time-consuming and since each increase in Force adds on 1/2 a box to the damage track but adds 2/3 onto the expected drain damage there is a cap on how far you can go, but theoretically this is a way for a level 1 initiate to whack their stats up to dragon-scaring levels. Now I just have to find a GM who'll allow it ... My character I ran a while back was bigger and scarier than this. Nosferatu mage who ended up using Ally Spirit to get an Inhabitation F8 Spirit to inhabit him, forcing a Hybrid merge, a-la Prince Arthas/Lich King. Having a magic of 8 that he boosted to 16 with all the spirit powers and everything.... Yeah. Let me find him in my archives...: [ Spoiler ] This is the point where I stopped playing him. That was also about 5 minutes of gametime after I finished the ritual. We (my team and I) lived out in a Z-zone to avoid detection. Between myself and the ghouls I could make we didn't have to worry about other Z-zone regulars messing with us. EDIT: Not sure if the physical stats are right - supposedly the Force of the Spirit only takes the attributes to Augmented Max. I think all his Physicals would be at 10 then. |
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Aug 15 2010, 05:34 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,147 Joined: 2-May 10 Member No.: 18,539 |
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 15 2010, 06:09 PM) My character I ran a while back was bigger and scarier than this. Nosferatu mage who ended up using Ally Spirit to get an Inhabitation F8 Spirit to inhabit him, forcing a Hybrid merge, a-la Prince Arthas/Lich King. Having a magic of 8 that he boosted to 16 with all the spirit powers and everything.... Yeah. Let me find him in my archives...: [ Spoiler ] This is the point where I stopped playing him. That was also about 5 minutes of gametime after I finished the ritual. We (my team and I) lived out in a Z-zone to avoid detection. Between myself and the ghouls I could make we didn't have to worry about other Z-zone regulars messing with us. EDIT: Not sure if the physical stats are right - supposedly the Force of the Spirit only takes the attributes to Augmented Max. I think all his Physicals would be at 10 then. Holy hell. You must have had a damn fine (or damn stupid) GM to have gotten that through. Is this the same nosferatu that tried to create his own empire of Infected using HMHVV-carrying slab grenades and touching random people on the street? |
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Aug 15 2010, 05:38 PM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 |
QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Aug 15 2010, 12:34 PM) Holy hell. You must have had a damn fine (or damn stupid) GM to have gotten that through. Is this the same nosferatu that tried to create his own empire of Infected using HMHVV-carrying slab grenades and touching random people on the street? That was the next step. Game stopped before it happened. It was a shadow empire, build mainly in the Z-zones. I think I had 40-ish ghouls under my control by the end of it. Also, the creation of that (completely by the rules, by the way) is probably the reason the campaign-arc ended. That guy was just too much awsome. I ended up turning the team sniper into a Nosferatu, both of the elves into Banshees, and for the ork we tracked down a wendigo in an HMHVV testing lab and broke him out. I had my generals for my army. EDIT: Actually... My players don't read this: [ Spoiler ]
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Aug 15 2010, 05:55 PM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,147 Joined: 2-May 10 Member No.: 18,539 |
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 15 2010, 06:38 PM) That was the next step. Game stopped before it happened. It was a shadow empire, build mainly in the Z-zones. I think I had 40-ish ghouls under my control by the end of it. Also, the creation of that (completely by the rules, by the way) is probably the reason the campaign-arc ended. That guy was just too much awsome. I ended up turning the team sniper into a Nosferatu, both of the elves into Banshees, and for the ork we tracked down a wendigo in an HMHVV testing lab and broke him out. I had my generals for my army. EDIT: Actually... My players don't read this: [ Spoiler ] I am very impressed. That is indeed very awesome. I personally would have had such a character research HMHVVirology and attempt to turn at least one of those elves into a harvester without giving him the intelligence of a watcher, and if there had been a troll I'd have LOVED to turn him/her into a mutaqua, but that is still extremely impressive. |
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Aug 15 2010, 06:09 PM
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#16
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 |
QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Aug 15 2010, 11:55 AM) I am very impressed. That is indeed very awesome. I personally would have had such a character research HMHVVirology and attempt to turn at least one of those elves into a harvester without giving him the intelligence of a watcher, and if there had been a troll I'd have LOVED to turn him/her into a mutaqua, but that is still extremely impressive. This was before Running Wild was printed. Here's the Formula for Sardiel (the Ally Spirit): [ Spoiler ] And the link to the thread with this idea more thoroughly thought out, including the inevitable discussion if a character like this is even still usable as a PC. EDIT: I don't know if it was listed above, but he was Carrier for Dzoo-noo-qua. Again, he was made before Running Wild was printed. If I could play him again he would be waaaaay more powerful since I know new tips and tricks. EDIT EDIT: Also I was in the proccess of making that focus at the bottom of the page. I didn't have it yet though. |
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Aug 15 2010, 06:36 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,147 Joined: 2-May 10 Member No.: 18,539 |
Pffft. Of course such a character is usable as a PC. Just not on the level that much of Shadowrun takes place at (which is to say, street level). Such a powerful character and his efforts to build an empire would, for example, probably draw the serious attention of some of the big players of the 6th World, such as Great Dragons and megacorp CEO's, and then you're in a whole different ballgame of political intrigue and tactical maneuvering (both diplomatically and militaristically). It'd be like playing as Ibn Eisa, with all the glass-building weirdness of his territory as presented in Ancient History's draft on Tehran.
Now that I think about it, you should post a run-through of the events of this campaign you were in sometime. It sounds like quite an interesting story. EDIT: Back on topic, if you really want to get into some Possession twinkery, Aerospider, you should try making a possession free spirit and buy yourself a pet. I personally like the idea of a sapient blackberry cat face/infiltrator, or a tiger shark to fill the street sam role in marine environments. A reserve player in one of the PbP games here used this idea to get himself a cerberus hound with Regeneration and ItNW rating 10, in addition to all the other powers that a cerberus hound has - like Movement (Self). Running at 180 mph is pretty nifty, methinks. And I don't even want to think about the idea of a bear shifter magician with maxed Body and Str getting himself possessed. |
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Aug 15 2010, 07:13 PM
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#18
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
I'm more convinced that the rules are broken than that it's playable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Aug 15 2010, 07:48 PM
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#19
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,110 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Aug 14 2010, 07:26 PM) Vampire of a possession tradition, Body 5 Magic 5 Essence 5 Drain Resistance 9, Channelling metamagic Drain Essence, raising it to 12 (double natural maximum) Boost Magic by 6 to 11 (Essence drops to 6) Summon a Force 10 spirit Be possessed by spirit Vessel uses spirit's Essence and Magic ratings of 10 Drain Essence, raising it to 20 Boost Magic to 20 (Essence drops to 10) Summon a Force 20 spirit Kick out the old spirit and take in the new one Repeat There are a few misconceptions happening here. Let me quote the relevant section of the rule on Essence drain, with highlights: QUOTE ([i]SR4A [/i]page 294) Essence Drain Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: Touch • Duration: Permanent The Essence Drain power allows a being to drain the Essence from another character, adding drained Essence to the critter’s own. Essence Drain can only target physical sentient beings (characters and nonastral critters with the Sentience power). The critter cannot drain from a resisting victim; the victim must either participate willingly, or be subdued into helplessness (restrained, paralyzed, knocked unconscious, mentally controlled, etc.). Essence transfer only occurs in the presence of strong emotion. This can be a lover’s passion, the terror of an unwilling victim, or the rage of a defeated enemy, for example. The emotions must be strong, and they must be focused personally on the critter using the power. Sometimes the transfer of a token amount of physical material takes place, such as blood for a vampire or flesh for a wendigo, though this usually serves to enhance the passion or terror of the moment. Draining a point of Essence takes a Charisma + Magic (10 – target’s Essence, 1 minute) Extended Test. If the critter is disturbed or interrupted before this test ends, the Essence point is not drained. The critter may drain as many points of Essence as it currently possesses, with a minimum of 1 point. A critter can only increase its Essence to twice its natural maximum. Lost Essence will affect a character’s Magic or Resonance rating, as noted on p. 68. If a character’s Essence is drained to 0, the character dies. The psychic stimulus of the act of draining has a side effect of creating ecstasy in the victim. A victim being drained must make a Willpower (2) Test. Failure indicates addiction, causing the subject to seek out the creature for another “rush.” Treat this as a Mild Addiction negative quality (see p. 93). This will, of course, lead to a rapid loss of Essence and eventual death if the character is not restrained or does not “kick the habit.” If pressed, a critter that has drained Essence within the past hour can siphon the stolen life force into other attributes, including (and often especially) Magic. Every 2 points of drained Essence temporarily boosts one Physical or Mental attribute, or Magic, by +1. The possessing spirit is not a physical being by itself. It is a combined being, with you. The best you could do is drain Essence from the combined physical being, ie. yourself. A spirit that is summoned by a conjurer is not restrained or mentally controlled. it is commanded. The level of domination necessary is not there. Spirits do not express emotion, as far as I can tell. Is there a section in the rules where it says they do? The spirit possessing the vessel would be easily able to disturb or interrupt the Essence drain. And be very inclined to do so. You are draining Essence into Magic at a rate of 1:1, not 2:1, and are not taking into account that your base Essence drops with the spirit's as you suck the spirit dry. |
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Aug 15 2010, 07:52 PM
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#20
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Wait, what? He's not Draining Essence from the spirit. He's using the Spirit's Essence pool to Drain Essence *more* from people.
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Aug 16 2010, 12:30 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 15-December 09 Member No.: 17,968 |
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 15 2010, 08:52 PM) Wait, what? He's not Draining Essence from the spirit. He's using the Spirit's Essence pool to Drain Essence *more* from people. Quite so. I think there is a lot to be debated about the feasibility of my pondered idea, but the only issue with the Essence Drain power is the 1 hour time limit on boosting an attribute which, as per my OP, is stupid. Incidentally, pbangarth, Essence IS transferred to the boosted attribute at a ratio of 1:1 – it's just that you can only use half the available Essence to do so (which I believe is mentioned in clumsier wording in the Essence Drain paragraph you didn't quote). |
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Aug 16 2010, 12:36 PM
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#22
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 15-December 09 Member No.: 17,968 |
QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Aug 15 2010, 07:36 PM) Back on topic, if you really want to get into some Possession twinkery, Aerospider, you should try making a possession free spirit and buy yourself a pet. I personally like the idea of a sapient blackberry cat face/infiltrator, or a tiger shark to fill the street sam role in marine environments. A reserve player in one of the PbP games here used this idea to get himself a cerberus hound with Regeneration and ItNW rating 10, in addition to all the other powers that a cerberus hound has - like Movement (Self). Running at 180 mph is pretty nifty, methinks. And I don't even want to think about the idea of a bear shifter magician with maxed Body and Str getting himself possessed. Not really. I like being creative with the mechanics, and loopholes are always fun to observe, but the character concept is what's important for me and this guy, should he ever make it to the gaming table, will be a big pain in the proverbial for whoever's desperate enough to run with him! |
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Aug 16 2010, 01:54 PM
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#23
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,803 Joined: 3-February 08 From: Finland Member No.: 15,628 |
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 15 2010, 08:38 PM) [ Spoiler ] [ Spoiler ]
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Aug 16 2010, 05:07 PM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 |
QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 16 2010, 08:54 AM) [ Spoiler ] The mage is already "dead" but still "alive" at the same time, being now incorporated into the Ally Spirit itself. There's a line of text saying that the memories of a person are not neccessarily destroyed. Now the mage and the spirit are one and the same. That's cause for the newly created being to come back. Back to the OP: When possessed your special attributes and powers are suppressed by and replaced by the spirit's. You could not let the spirit use your Essence Drain ability to boost its Magic rating. |
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Aug 16 2010, 05:28 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 15-December 09 Member No.: 17,968 |
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 16 2010, 06:07 PM) The mage is already "dead" but still "alive" at the same time, being now incorporated into the Ally Spirit itself. There's a line of text saying that the memories of a person are not neccessarily destroyed. Now the mage and the spirit are one and the same. That's cause for the newly created being to come back. Back to the OP: When possessed your special attributes and powers are suppressed by and replaced by the spirit's. You could not let the spirit use your Essence Drain ability to boost its Magic rating. So you wouldn't allow the use of any of the summoner's powers, including regeneration? Even through channelling? |
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