So I'm putting together a new character to try out the whole possession thing and, after settling on a rastafarian-vampire-(sukuyan)-conjurer-healer-face, I find a gap in the RAW: can the possessing spirit use the host's powers? No mention in SR4a or SM, so what do you reckon?
Possession is highly-powered as it is, so should they not work at all?
Maybe it should be considered as with cyberware: automatic examples (bone lacing, regeneration) do still work automatically but anything requiring activation or control (cybergun, mist form) can't be communicated with.
Then there's the channelling metamagic which allows the magician fine motor control and skill use. Should that therefore allow full access to powers?
With all this in mind, has the following sillinness ever been posed before? (For it to work you do have to ignore the one-hour time limit for boosting an attribute after draining essence, but that's just plain sense since otherwise you could only do it a few times a year.)
Vampire of a possession tradition, Body 5 Magic 5 Essence 5 Drain Resistance 9, Channelling metamagic
Drain Essence, raising it to 12 (double natural maximum)
Boost Magic by 6 to 11 (Essence drops to 6)
Summon a Force 10 spirit
Be possessed by spirit
Vessel uses spirit's Essence and Magic ratings of 10
Drain Essence, raising it to 20
Boost Magic to 20 (Essence drops to 10)
Summon a Force 20 spirit
Kick out the old spirit and take in the new one
Repeat
You would need to keep healing the drain damage the mundane way, the Essence draining would get more and more time-consuming and since each increase in Force adds on 1/2 a box to the damage track but adds 2/3 onto the expected drain damage there is a cap on how far you can go, but theoretically this is a way for a level 1 initiate to whack their stats up to dragon-scaring levels. Now I just have to find a GM who'll allow it ...
Full Version: Possession and YOUR powers
my munchkin heart loves you... I just found the next bad guy for my campaign.
I'm pretty sure you don't use the spirit's Essence and Magic ratings for vampiring people.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 15 2010, 12:32 AM) 
I'm pretty sure you don't use the spirit's Essence and Magic ratings for vampiring people.
No mention in the RAW. Makes sense that it was never considered (or cut to make space). The channelling metamagic only states that the lower of the two sets of mental attributes are used when resisting mana spells and powers but otherwise it's possession as usual.
RAI - Functional Essence and Magic ratings are those of the spirit
Common sense - I agree with you
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Aug 15 2010, 01:26 AM)
since each increase in Force adds on 1/2 a box to the damage track but adds 2/3 onto the expected drain damage there is a cap on how far you can go,
It also adds 2 dice to your drain pool, so that's even. You will have a problem with the Summoning test, though: each point of Force gives you 1 more die to summon and 2 more more dice for the spirit to resist.
QUOTE (Traul @ Aug 15 2010, 01:06 AM)
It also adds 2 dice to your drain pool, so that's even. You will have a problem with the Summoning test, though: each point of Force gives you 1 more die to summon and 2 more more dice for the spirit to resist.
Ah yes, you're right about the drain resistance.
However you're wrong about adding two dice to the spirit's resistance - summoing is only resisted by Force, it's binding and re-binding that uses Force x 2. What would become a factor very quickly, though, is how really big spirits would use Edge.
Yes, I was counting Edge for the spirit. If you didn't, how did you come up with 2/3 drain per Force point? But you're right, it's not a problem: the mage also gets 1 more Edge per point of Force, so he should always be able to use Edge on the summoning test.
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Aug 14 2010, 06:26 PM)
Possession is highly-powered as it is, so should they not work at all?
Maybe it should be considered as with cyberware: automatic examples (bone lacing, regeneration) do still work automatically but anything requiring activation or control (cybergun, mist form) can't be communicated with.
Then there's the channelling metamagic which allows the magician fine motor control and skill use. Should that therefore allow full access to powers?
Maybe it should be considered as with cyberware: automatic examples (bone lacing, regeneration) do still work automatically but anything requiring activation or control (cybergun, mist form) can't be communicated with.
Then there's the channelling metamagic which allows the magician fine motor control and skill use. Should that therefore allow full access to powers?
A magician channeling a spirit has access to the magician's own abilities, but not the spirit's (unless the magician spends a service normally, or has the spirit Endow her with the power). I would say that the reverse applies when the magician is possessed, but not channeling: the spirit has no access to the powers and skills of the magician. The "Possession and Vessels" sidebar on p102 of Street Magic doesn't specifically call out powers, but it does say that the spirit "does not have access to the host's knowledge, skills, or experience". Even if the spirit had access to any powers, it wouldn't necessarily know how to use the them, or even that they existed. The only exceptions would be passive/automatic things, just like the cyberware rules you pointed out.
Possession is strong enough without engaging in Pun-Pun tactics--and I say that as the player of a possession-tradition conjurer.
The Mage needs Channeling anyway, otherwise he cannot summon once possessed.
I think the spirit would have access to the vessels powers. They have access to adept powers and things like critter powers, or surge powers also work. The essence drain thing is not that much different. The GM could easily rule that the essence drain still only boosts the mages essence even though the spirit is the one using the power. Though there is no real reason to not allow this other than that it will make you ungodly powerful and other vampires would be doing it too.
Even Vampires are not all into mass murder. The spirit power might grow exponentially, but so does the number of victims.
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Aug 14 2010, 06:26 PM)
So I'm putting together a new character to try out the whole possession thing and, after settling on a rastafarian-vampire-(sukuyan)-conjurer-healer-face, I find a gap in the RAW: can the possessing spirit use the host's powers? No mention in SR4a or SM, so what do you reckon?
Possession is highly-powered as it is, so should they not work at all?
Maybe it should be considered as with cyberware: automatic examples (bone lacing, regeneration) do still work automatically but anything requiring activation or control (cybergun, mist form) can't be communicated with.
Then there's the channelling metamagic which allows the magician fine motor control and skill use. Should that therefore allow full access to powers?
With all this in mind, has the following sillinness ever been posed before? (For it to work you do have to ignore the one-hour time limit for boosting an attribute after draining essence, but that's just plain sense since otherwise you could only do it a few times a year.)
Vampire of a possession tradition, Body 5 Magic 5 Essence 5 Drain Resistance 9, Channelling metamagic
Drain Essence, raising it to 12 (double natural maximum)
Boost Magic by 6 to 11 (Essence drops to 6)
Summon a Force 10 spirit
Be possessed by spirit
Vessel uses spirit's Essence and Magic ratings of 10
Drain Essence, raising it to 20
Boost Magic to 20 (Essence drops to 10)
Summon a Force 20 spirit
Kick out the old spirit and take in the new one
Repeat
You would need to keep healing the drain damage the mundane way, the Essence draining would get more and more time-consuming and since each increase in Force adds on 1/2 a box to the damage track but adds 2/3 onto the expected drain damage there is a cap on how far you can go, but theoretically this is a way for a level 1 initiate to whack their stats up to dragon-scaring levels. Now I just have to find a GM who'll allow it ...
Possession is highly-powered as it is, so should they not work at all?
Maybe it should be considered as with cyberware: automatic examples (bone lacing, regeneration) do still work automatically but anything requiring activation or control (cybergun, mist form) can't be communicated with.
Then there's the channelling metamagic which allows the magician fine motor control and skill use. Should that therefore allow full access to powers?
With all this in mind, has the following sillinness ever been posed before? (For it to work you do have to ignore the one-hour time limit for boosting an attribute after draining essence, but that's just plain sense since otherwise you could only do it a few times a year.)
Vampire of a possession tradition, Body 5 Magic 5 Essence 5 Drain Resistance 9, Channelling metamagic
Drain Essence, raising it to 12 (double natural maximum)
Boost Magic by 6 to 11 (Essence drops to 6)
Summon a Force 10 spirit
Be possessed by spirit
Vessel uses spirit's Essence and Magic ratings of 10
Drain Essence, raising it to 20
Boost Magic to 20 (Essence drops to 10)
Summon a Force 20 spirit
Kick out the old spirit and take in the new one
Repeat
You would need to keep healing the drain damage the mundane way, the Essence draining would get more and more time-consuming and since each increase in Force adds on 1/2 a box to the damage track but adds 2/3 onto the expected drain damage there is a cap on how far you can go, but theoretically this is a way for a level 1 initiate to whack their stats up to dragon-scaring levels. Now I just have to find a GM who'll allow it ...
My character I ran a while back was bigger and scarier than this. Nosferatu mage who ended up using Ally Spirit to get an Inhabitation F8 Spirit to inhabit him, forcing a Hybrid merge, a-la Prince Arthas/Lich King. Having a magic of 8 that he boosted to 16 with all the spirit powers and everything.... Yeah.
Let me find him in my archives...:
[ Spoiler ]
, Response 6, Firewall 6. Camera with R6 Empathy/Facial recognition; Glasses (R3 Vision Enhancement); Earbuds (R3 Audio Enhancement); Contacts (Image Link, Flare Compensation, Vision Magnification); Sattelite Link; Trode Net; AR Gloves; Skinlink; Subvocal Microphone; Biomonitor (voice); Sim Module (Hot Sim)This is the point where I stopped playing him. That was also about 5 minutes of gametime after I finished the ritual. We (my team and I) lived out in a Z-zone to avoid detection. Between myself and the ghouls I could make we didn't have to worry about other Z-zone regulars messing with us.
EDIT: Not sure if the physical stats are right - supposedly the Force of the Spirit only takes the attributes to Augmented Max. I think all his Physicals would be at 10 then.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 15 2010, 06:09 PM)
My character I ran a while back was bigger and scarier than this. Nosferatu mage who ended up using Ally Spirit to get an Inhabitation F8 Spirit to inhabit him, forcing a Hybrid merge, a-la Prince Arthas/Lich King. Having a magic of 8 that he boosted to 16 with all the spirit powers and everything.... Yeah.
Let me find him in my archives...:
This is the point where I stopped playing him. That was also about 5 minutes of gametime after I finished the ritual. We (my team and I) lived out in a Z-zone to avoid detection. Between myself and the ghouls I could make we didn't have to worry about other Z-zone regulars messing with us.
EDIT: Not sure if the physical stats are right - supposedly the Force of the Spirit only takes the attributes to Augmented Max. I think all his Physicals would be at 10 then.
Let me find him in my archives...:
[ Spoiler ]
This is the point where I stopped playing him. That was also about 5 minutes of gametime after I finished the ritual. We (my team and I) lived out in a Z-zone to avoid detection. Between myself and the ghouls I could make we didn't have to worry about other Z-zone regulars messing with us.
EDIT: Not sure if the physical stats are right - supposedly the Force of the Spirit only takes the attributes to Augmented Max. I think all his Physicals would be at 10 then.
Holy hell. You must have had a damn fine (or damn stupid) GM to have gotten that through. Is this the same nosferatu that tried to create his own empire of Infected using HMHVV-carrying slab grenades and touching random people on the street?
QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Aug 15 2010, 12:34 PM)
Holy hell. You must have had a damn fine (or damn stupid) GM to have gotten that through. Is this the same nosferatu that tried to create his own empire of Infected using HMHVV-carrying slab grenades and touching random people on the street?
That was the next step. Game stopped before it happened. It was a shadow empire, build mainly in the Z-zones. I think I had 40-ish ghouls under my control by the end of it.
Also, the creation of that (completely by the rules, by the way) is probably the reason the campaign-arc ended. That guy was just too much awsome. I ended up turning the team sniper into a Nosferatu, both of the elves into Banshees, and for the ork we tracked down a wendigo in an HMHVV testing lab and broke him out. I had my generals for my army.
EDIT: Actually... My players don't read this:
[ Spoiler ]
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 15 2010, 06:38 PM)
That was the next step. Game stopped before it happened. It was a shadow empire, build mainly in the Z-zones. I think I had 40-ish ghouls under my control by the end of it.
Also, the creation of that (completely by the rules, by the way) is probably the reason the campaign-arc ended. That guy was just too much awsome. I ended up turning the team sniper into a Nosferatu, both of the elves into Banshees, and for the ork we tracked down a wendigo in an HMHVV testing lab and broke him out. I had my generals for my army.
EDIT: Actually... My players don't read this:
Also, the creation of that (completely by the rules, by the way) is probably the reason the campaign-arc ended. That guy was just too much awsome. I ended up turning the team sniper into a Nosferatu, both of the elves into Banshees, and for the ork we tracked down a wendigo in an HMHVV testing lab and broke him out. I had my generals for my army.
EDIT: Actually... My players don't read this:
[ Spoiler ]
I am very impressed. That is indeed very awesome. I personally would have had such a character research HMHVVirology and attempt to turn at least one of those elves into a harvester without giving him the intelligence of a watcher, and if there had been a troll I'd have LOVED to turn him/her into a mutaqua, but that is still extremely impressive.
QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Aug 15 2010, 11:55 AM)
I am very impressed. That is indeed very awesome. I personally would have had such a character research HMHVVirology and attempt to turn at least one of those elves into a harvester without giving him the intelligence of a watcher, and if there had been a troll I'd have LOVED to turn him/her into a mutaqua, but that is still extremely impressive.
This was before Running Wild was printed.
Here's the Formula for Sardiel (the Ally Spirit):
[ Spoiler ]
And the link to the thread with this idea more thoroughly thought out, including the inevitable discussion if a character like this is even still usable as a PC.
EDIT: I don't know if it was listed above, but he was Carrier for Dzoo-noo-qua. Again, he was made before Running Wild was printed. If I could play him again he would be waaaaay more powerful since I know new tips and tricks.
EDIT EDIT: Also I was in the proccess of making that focus at the bottom of the page. I didn't have it yet though.
Pffft. Of course such a character is usable as a PC. Just not on the level that much of Shadowrun takes place at (which is to say, street level). Such a powerful character and his efforts to build an empire would, for example, probably draw the serious attention of some of the big players of the 6th World, such as Great Dragons and megacorp CEO's, and then you're in a whole different ballgame of political intrigue and tactical maneuvering (both diplomatically and militaristically). It'd be like playing as Ibn Eisa, with all the glass-building weirdness of his territory as presented in Ancient History's draft on Tehran.
Now that I think about it, you should post a run-through of the events of this campaign you were in sometime. It sounds like quite an interesting story.
EDIT: Back on topic, if you really want to get into some Possession twinkery, Aerospider, you should try making a possession free spirit and buy yourself a pet. I personally like the idea of a sapient blackberry cat face/infiltrator, or a tiger shark to fill the street sam role in marine environments. A reserve player in one of the PbP games here used this idea to get himself a cerberus hound with Regeneration and ItNW rating 10, in addition to all the other powers that a cerberus hound has - like Movement (Self). Running at 180 mph is pretty nifty, methinks. And I don't even want to think about the idea of a bear shifter magician with maxed Body and Str getting himself possessed.
Now that I think about it, you should post a run-through of the events of this campaign you were in sometime. It sounds like quite an interesting story.
EDIT: Back on topic, if you really want to get into some Possession twinkery, Aerospider, you should try making a possession free spirit and buy yourself a pet. I personally like the idea of a sapient blackberry cat face/infiltrator, or a tiger shark to fill the street sam role in marine environments. A reserve player in one of the PbP games here used this idea to get himself a cerberus hound with Regeneration and ItNW rating 10, in addition to all the other powers that a cerberus hound has - like Movement (Self). Running at 180 mph is pretty nifty, methinks. And I don't even want to think about the idea of a bear shifter magician with maxed Body and Str getting himself possessed.
I'm more convinced that the rules are broken than that it's playable. 
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Aug 14 2010, 07:26 PM)
Vampire of a possession tradition, Body 5 Magic 5 Essence 5 Drain Resistance 9, Channelling metamagic
Drain Essence, raising it to 12 (double natural maximum)
Boost Magic by 6 to 11 (Essence drops to 6)
Summon a Force 10 spirit
Be possessed by spirit
Vessel uses spirit's Essence and Magic ratings of 10
Drain Essence, raising it to 20
Boost Magic to 20 (Essence drops to 10)
Summon a Force 20 spirit
Kick out the old spirit and take in the new one
Repeat
Drain Essence, raising it to 12 (double natural maximum)
Boost Magic by 6 to 11 (Essence drops to 6)
Summon a Force 10 spirit
Be possessed by spirit
Vessel uses spirit's Essence and Magic ratings of 10
Drain Essence, raising it to 20
Boost Magic to 20 (Essence drops to 10)
Summon a Force 20 spirit
Kick out the old spirit and take in the new one
Repeat
There are a few misconceptions happening here. Let me quote the relevant section of the rule on Essence drain, with highlights:
QUOTE ([i]SR4A [/i]page 294)
Essence Drain
Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: Touch • Duration: Permanent
The Essence Drain power allows a being to drain the Essence from
another character, adding drained Essence to the critter’s own. Essence
Drain can only target physical sentient beings (characters and nonastral
critters with the Sentience power).
The critter cannot drain from a resisting victim; the victim must
either participate willingly, or be subdued into helplessness (restrained,
paralyzed, knocked unconscious, mentally controlled, etc.). Essence
transfer only occurs in the presence of strong emotion. This can be
a lover’s passion, the terror of an unwilling victim, or the rage of a
defeated enemy, for example. The emotions must be strong, and they
must be focused personally on the critter using the power. Sometimes
the transfer of a token amount of physical material takes place, such as
blood for a vampire or flesh for a wendigo, though this usually serves
to enhance the passion or terror of the moment.
Draining a point of Essence takes a Charisma + Magic (10 – target’s
Essence, 1 minute) Extended Test. If the critter is disturbed or
interrupted before this test ends, the Essence point is not drained. The
critter may drain as many points of Essence as it currently possesses,
with a minimum of 1 point. A critter can only increase its Essence to
twice its natural maximum.
Lost Essence will affect a character’s Magic or Resonance rating, as
noted on p. 68. If a character’s Essence is drained to 0, the character dies.
The psychic stimulus of the act of draining has a side effect of
creating ecstasy in the victim. A victim being drained must make a
Willpower (2) Test. Failure indicates addiction, causing the subject to
seek out the creature for another “rush.” Treat this as a Mild Addiction
negative quality (see p. 93). This will, of course, lead to a rapid loss of
Essence and eventual death if the character is not restrained or does
not “kick the habit.”
If pressed, a critter that has drained Essence within the past hour
can siphon the stolen life force into other attributes, including (and
often especially) Magic. Every 2 points of drained Essence temporarily
boosts one Physical or Mental attribute, or Magic, by +1.
Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: Touch • Duration: Permanent
The Essence Drain power allows a being to drain the Essence from
another character, adding drained Essence to the critter’s own. Essence
Drain can only target physical sentient beings (characters and nonastral
critters with the Sentience power).
The critter cannot drain from a resisting victim; the victim must
either participate willingly, or be subdued into helplessness (restrained,
paralyzed, knocked unconscious, mentally controlled, etc.). Essence
transfer only occurs in the presence of strong emotion. This can be
a lover’s passion, the terror of an unwilling victim, or the rage of a
defeated enemy, for example. The emotions must be strong, and they
must be focused personally on the critter using the power. Sometimes
the transfer of a token amount of physical material takes place, such as
blood for a vampire or flesh for a wendigo, though this usually serves
to enhance the passion or terror of the moment.
Draining a point of Essence takes a Charisma + Magic (10 – target’s
Essence, 1 minute) Extended Test. If the critter is disturbed or
interrupted before this test ends, the Essence point is not drained. The
critter may drain as many points of Essence as it currently possesses,
with a minimum of 1 point. A critter can only increase its Essence to
twice its natural maximum.
Lost Essence will affect a character’s Magic or Resonance rating, as
noted on p. 68. If a character’s Essence is drained to 0, the character dies.
The psychic stimulus of the act of draining has a side effect of
creating ecstasy in the victim. A victim being drained must make a
Willpower (2) Test. Failure indicates addiction, causing the subject to
seek out the creature for another “rush.” Treat this as a Mild Addiction
negative quality (see p. 93). This will, of course, lead to a rapid loss of
Essence and eventual death if the character is not restrained or does
not “kick the habit.”
If pressed, a critter that has drained Essence within the past hour
can siphon the stolen life force into other attributes, including (and
often especially) Magic. Every 2 points of drained Essence temporarily
boosts one Physical or Mental attribute, or Magic, by +1.
The possessing spirit is not a physical being by itself. It is a combined being, with you. The best you could do is drain Essence from the combined physical being, ie. yourself.
A spirit that is summoned by a conjurer is not restrained or mentally controlled. it is commanded. The level of domination necessary is not there.
Spirits do not express emotion, as far as I can tell. Is there a section in the rules where it says they do?
The spirit possessing the vessel would be easily able to disturb or interrupt the Essence drain. And be very inclined to do so.
You are draining Essence into Magic at a rate of 1:1, not 2:1, and are not taking into account that your base Essence drops with the spirit's as you suck the spirit dry.
Wait, what? He's not Draining Essence from the spirit. He's using the Spirit's Essence pool to Drain Essence *more* from people.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 15 2010, 08:52 PM)
Wait, what? He's not Draining Essence from the spirit. He's using the Spirit's Essence pool to Drain Essence *more* from people.
Quite so. I think there is a lot to be debated about the feasibility of my pondered idea, but the only issue with the Essence Drain power is the 1 hour time limit on boosting an attribute which, as per my OP, is stupid.
Incidentally, pbangarth, Essence IS transferred to the boosted attribute at a ratio of 1:1 – it's just that you can only use half the available Essence to do so (which I believe is mentioned in clumsier wording in the Essence Drain paragraph you didn't quote).
QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Aug 15 2010, 07:36 PM)
Back on topic, if you really want to get into some Possession twinkery, Aerospider, you should try making a possession free spirit and buy yourself a pet. I personally like the idea of a sapient blackberry cat face/infiltrator, or a tiger shark to fill the street sam role in marine environments. A reserve player in one of the PbP games here used this idea to get himself a cerberus hound with Regeneration and ItNW rating 10, in addition to all the other powers that a cerberus hound has - like Movement (Self). Running at 180 mph is pretty nifty, methinks. And I don't even want to think about the idea of a bear shifter magician with maxed Body and Str getting himself possessed.
Not really. I like being creative with the mechanics, and loopholes are always fun to observe, but the character concept is what's important for me and this guy, should he ever make it to the gaming table, will be a big pain in the proverbial for whoever's desperate enough to run with him!
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 15 2010, 08:38 PM)
[ Spoiler ]
[ Spoiler ]
QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 16 2010, 08:54 AM)
[ Spoiler ]
The mage is already "dead" but still "alive" at the same time, being now incorporated into the Ally Spirit itself. There's a line of text saying that the memories of a person are not neccessarily destroyed. Now the mage and the spirit are one and the same. That's cause for the newly created being to come back.
Back to the OP: When possessed your special attributes and powers are suppressed by and replaced by the spirit's. You could not let the spirit use your Essence Drain ability to boost its Magic rating.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 16 2010, 06:07 PM)
The mage is already "dead" but still "alive" at the same time, being now incorporated into the Ally Spirit itself. There's a line of text saying that the memories of a person are not neccessarily destroyed. Now the mage and the spirit are one and the same. That's cause for the newly created being to come back.
Back to the OP: When possessed your special attributes and powers are suppressed by and replaced by the spirit's. You could not let the spirit use your Essence Drain ability to boost its Magic rating.
Back to the OP: When possessed your special attributes and powers are suppressed by and replaced by the spirit's. You could not let the spirit use your Essence Drain ability to boost its Magic rating.
So you wouldn't allow the use of any of the summoner's powers, including regeneration? Even through channelling?
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Aug 16 2010, 12:28 PM)
So you wouldn't allow the use of any of the summoner's powers, including regeneration? Even through channelling?
Exactly right. In fact, all Channeling allows you to do is retain fine motor control, meaning using their own skills (which are normally blocked), and resist spells with the higher of your mental attributes or the spirit's - it says nothing about the spirit gaining access to anything of yours, and neither do the Possession rules.
EDIT: Sidebar, page 102, Street Magic, and Channeling, page 54-55, Street Magic.
Also edited for actual rules. I read it too fast.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 15 2010, 06:09 PM)
My character I ran a while back was bigger and scarier than this. Nosferatu mage who ended up using Ally Spirit to get an Inhabitation F8 Spirit to inhabit him, forcing a Hybrid merge, a-la Prince Arthas/Lich King. Having a magic of 8 that he boosted to 16 with all the spirit powers and everything.... Yeah.
Let me find him in my archives...:
This is the point where I stopped playing him. That was also about 5 minutes of gametime after I finished the ritual. We (my team and I) lived out in a Z-zone to avoid detection. Between myself and the ghouls I could make we didn't have to worry about other Z-zone regulars messing with us.
EDIT: Not sure if the physical stats are right - supposedly the Force of the Spirit only takes the attributes to Augmented Max. I think all his Physicals would be at 10 then.
Let me find him in my archives...:
[ Spoiler ]
This is the point where I stopped playing him. That was also about 5 minutes of gametime after I finished the ritual. We (my team and I) lived out in a Z-zone to avoid detection. Between myself and the ghouls I could make we didn't have to worry about other Z-zone regulars messing with us.
EDIT: Not sure if the physical stats are right - supposedly the Force of the Spirit only takes the attributes to Augmented Max. I think all his Physicals would be at 10 then.
Hate to put a dampener on such a fine powerhouse, but this isn't technically a legal PC. Inhabitation destroys the host, regardless of the form taken, except by GM fiat and even then the host is not in any control of the vessel, probably not even receiving any sense data. For the GM to allow you to continue to play the vessel makes perfect gaming sense, but it's not what I'd call the same character. You'd be roleplaying a different entity and for a starting character I think it might be a bit over the 400 BPs ...
Nice end to a doubtlessly-illustrious career though!
I don't have the time to look up the rules - but I am pretty sure that this wouldn't work. First off, the vamp couldn't summon a second spirit unless he bound the first spirit. Which means the drain resist pool would need to be huge. Secondly, the limits on skill pools puts you in a disadvantage for services - you might not even summon correctly, much less bind. Lastly, I don't think you could bind a Force 20 spirit - unless you lived in a world of perpetual darkness. Once summoned, IIRC it takes Force hours to bind the spirit but an unbound spirit goes home at the next sunrise or sunset. Which means to bind a Force 20 spirit you would need 20 hours between sunrise and sunset.
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Aug 16 2010, 12:38 PM)
Hate to put a dampener on such a fine powerhouse, but this isn't technically a legal PC. Inhabitation destroys the host, regardless of the form taken, except by GM fiat and even then the host is not in any control of the vessel, probably not even receiving any sense data. For the GM to allow you to continue to play the vessel makes perfect gaming sense, but it's not what I'd call the same character. You'd be roleplaying a different entity and for a starting character I think it might be a bit over the 400 BPs ...
Nice end to a doubtlessly-illustrious career though!
Nice end to a doubtlessly-illustrious career though!
The entire debate was in the thread I listed. There is a provision in the rules to allow the vessel to still remain in the fused form.
EDIT:
I may be referencing the "GM fiat" line in the Inhabitation Power, but it still remains that it is possible for something like that to work. The PC is not a fragment floating around inside the spirit; instead, the PC and the spirit have fully merged into one, new creature. Look at Prince Arthas the Lich King. That was my inspiration.
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Aug 16 2010, 12:39 PM)
I don't have the time to look up the rules - but I am pretty sure that this wouldn't work. First off, the vamp couldn't summon a second spirit unless he bound the first spirit. Which means the drain resist pool would need to be huge. Secondly, the limits on skill pools puts you in a disadvantage for services - you might not even summon correctly, much less bind. Lastly, I don't think you could bind a Force 20 spirit - unless you lived in a world of perpetual darkness. Once summoned, IIRC it takes Force hours to bind the spirit but an unbound spirit goes home at the next sunrise or sunset. Which means to bind a Force 20 spirit you would need 20 hours between sunrise and sunset.
Where exactly did F20 come from?
In any event, the spirit persists until the ritual is done - I think that's in the FAQ.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 16 2010, 06:30 PM)
Exactly right. In fact, all Channeling allows you to do is retain fine motor control, meaning using their own skills (which are normally blocked), and resist spells with the higher of your mental attributes or the spirit's - it says nothing about the spirit gaining access to anything of yours, and neither do the Possession rules.
EDIT: Sidebar, page 102, Street Magic, and Channeling, page 54-55, Street Magic.
Also edited for actual rules. I read it too fast.
EDIT: Sidebar, page 102, Street Magic, and Channeling, page 54-55, Street Magic.
Also edited for actual rules. I read it too fast.
Interesting and reasonable, though it was the 'saying nothing' that promtped the question in the first place. I think I'm inclined to agree with you.
Ooh, except that channelling forces the use of the lower mental attribute to resist spells/powers.
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Aug 16 2010, 12:45 PM)
Interesting and reasonable, though it was the 'saying nothing' that promtped the question in the first place. I think I'm inclined to agree with you.
Ooh, except that channelling forces the use of the lower mental attribute to resist spells/powers.
Ooh, except that channelling forces the use of the lower mental attribute to resist spells/powers.
Oh. As mentioned, I was reading it quickly. I also had to fix something else I had posted because of speed reading.
Drat my near-photo reading. I miss things when I don't slow it down on purpose.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 16 2010, 10:39 AM)
Where exactly did F20 come from?
In any event, the spirit persists until the ritual is done - I think that's in the FAQ.
In any event, the spirit persists until the ritual is done - I think that's in the FAQ.
Uh... the very first post? And if you are using the FAQ then possessed characters are limited to racial maximums.
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Aug 16 2010, 12:54 PM)
Uh... the very first post? And if you are using the FAQ then possessed characters are limited to racial maximums.
Oh. Well as I pointed out the spirit does not get to use your abilities and you do not get to use the spirit's Force. His special attributes overwrite yours and you are not able to use your abilities or powers. Channeling allows you to use your skills, not your powers, and still doesn't allow you to mix-n-match Powers with Special Attributes.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 16 2010, 06:39 PM)
The entire debate was in the thread I listed. There is a provision in the rules to allow the vessel to still remain in the fused form.
EDIT:
I may be referencing the "GM fiat" line in the Inhabitation Power, but it still remains that it is possible for something like that to work. The PC is not a fragment floating around inside the spirit; instead, the PC and the spirit have fully merged into one, new creature. Look at Prince Arthas the Lich King. That was my inspiration.
EDIT:
I may be referencing the "GM fiat" line in the Inhabitation Power, but it still remains that it is possible for something like that to work. The PC is not a fragment floating around inside the spirit; instead, the PC and the spirit have fully merged into one, new creature. Look at Prince Arthas the Lich King. That was my inspiration.
Ah, well I don't wish to resurrect anything, but FYI the following line seems pretty clear cut to me:
"A hybrid form is a hybridization of the vessel and the spirit ..." Inhabitation Merges sidebar, p100, SM, ephasis mine
In any case, it just feels too much like scoring a face-to-face with Lofwyr and saying "Cool, can I be him instead?"
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Aug 16 2010, 12:58 PM)
Ah, well I don't wish to resurrect anything, but FYI the following line seems pretty clear cut to me:
"A hybrid form is a hybridization of the vessel and the spirit ..." Inhabitation Merges sidebar, p100, SM, ephasis mine
In any case, it just feels too much like scoring a face-to-face with Lofwyr and saying "Cool, can I be him instead?"
"A hybrid form is a hybridization of the vessel and the spirit ..." Inhabitation Merges sidebar, p100, SM, ephasis mine
In any case, it just feels too much like scoring a face-to-face with Lofwyr and saying "Cool, can I be him instead?"
Eh. That would only come into play when my character finally dies, which is fairly difficult in and of itself.
EDIT: Also, I am one that believes Lofwyr (and all the Greats) would have plenty of defenses against some piddly F8 spirit. Granted I can pump my F to 16, but that doesn't change my stats or skills - it just pumps my Powers and Overcasting possibilities.
Frustratingly, I can't seem to find it in Street Magic atm, but I swear I read somewhere in one of the rulebooks that possession spirits gain access to the vessel's powers - I think the example they gave was of adept powers.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 16 2010, 07:30 PM)
Exactly right. In fact, all Channeling allows you to do is retain fine motor control, meaning using their own skills (which are normally blocked), and resist spells with the higher of your mental attributes or the spirit's - it says nothing about the spirit gaining access to anything of yours, and neither do the Possession rules.
EDIT: Sidebar, page 102, Street Magic, and Channeling, page 54-55, Street Magic.
Also edited for actual rules. I read it too fast.
EDIT: Sidebar, page 102, Street Magic, and Channeling, page 54-55, Street Magic.
Also edited for actual rules. I read it too fast.
And most important: Channeling allows you to play your character while possessed. Spirits are NPCs, even if most GMs let the summoner handle his own spirits for ease of play.
QUOTE (Traul @ Aug 16 2010, 01:34 PM)
And most important: Channeling allows you to play your character while possessed. Spirits are NPCs, even if most GMs let the summoner handle his own spirits for ease of play.
Right. Definately a good point to make.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 16 2010, 10:57 AM)
Oh. Well as I pointed out the spirit does not get to use your abilities and you do not get to use the spirit's Force. His special attributes overwrite yours and you are not able to use your abilities or powers. Channeling allows you to use your skills, not your powers, and still doesn't allow you to mix-n-match Powers with Special Attributes.
Which still means you can cast spells and conjure - both of those are skills.
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Aug 16 2010, 03:47 PM)
Which still means you can cast spells and conjure - both of those are skills.
Yes, but you can't use Essence Drain, Fear, or Confusion. Those are Powers.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 16 2010, 10:43 AM)
Right. Definately a good point to make.
I guess it doesn't really matter if your GM let the Inhabitation work out so that the character wasn't destroyed, since the game ended anyway.
But that's a ruling that, as you pointed out by word and example, ends games.
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Aug 16 2010, 11:57 PM)
I guess it doesn't really matter if your GM let the Inhabitation work out so that the character wasn't destroyed, since the game ended anyway.
But that's a ruling that, as you pointed out by word and example, ends games.
But that's a ruling that, as you pointed out by word and example, ends games.
What a way to go though, right?
It is possible to tone it down and still have it work for the most part. I spent over 100 karma to get a F8 Ally Spirit. You could do like 40 or less for a F3 and still be fairly "street."
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 16 2010, 07:13 PM)
EDIT: Also, I am one that believes Lofwyr (and all the Greats) would have plenty of defenses against some piddly F8 spirit. Granted I can pump my F to 16, but that doesn't change my stats or skills - it just pumps my Powers and Overcasting possibilities.
You misunderstand me – my point was that your character came into contact with an NPC and then you switched to playing the NPC.
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Aug 17 2010, 10:37 PM)
You misunderstand me – my point was that your character came into contact with an NPC and then you switched to playing the NPC.
alright here's a scenario..
i am pretty sure you guys heard of the term "higher soul/spirit" from new agey books..
now what if a higher soul/spirit version of yourself were to inhabit your body and merge with your current soul?
that would fulfill the "soul consumption" part of the deal yet gives you control of your current pc.. just my 2 cents...
QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Aug 17 2010, 12:57 PM)
alright here's a scenario..
i am pretty sure you guys heard of the term "higher soul/spirit" from new agey books..
i am pretty sure you guys heard of the term "higher soul/spirit" from new agey books..
Um, no ...
QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Aug 17 2010, 12:57 PM)
now what if a higher soul/spirit version of yourself were to inhabit your body and merge with your current soul?
that would fulfill the "soul consumption" part of the deal yet gives you control of your current pc.. just my 2 cents...
that would fulfill the "soul consumption" part of the deal yet gives you control of your current pc.. just my 2 cents...
Whatever mysticism your referring to isn't present in the crunch or fluff (except possibly as a particular tradition's view of spirits, maybe, but then I don't really know what you're on about) so IMO it would be on a par with just ignoring the SR material and making it up yourself. Which is fine, but fruitless to debate.
In SR, however, there's no such thing and (as I quoted before) inhabitation merges the spirit with the vessel, not the host's soul. The host is either lost or (subject to GM fiat) not lost, but either way has no involvement after the inhabitation is complete.
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Aug 17 2010, 10:37 PM)
Um, no ...
Whatever mysticism your referring to isn't present in the crunch or fluff (except possibly as a particular tradition's view of spirits, maybe, but then I don't really know what you're on about) so IMO it would be on a par with just ignoring the SR material and making it up yourself. Which is fine, but fruitless to debate.
In SR, however, there's no such thing and (as I quoted before) inhabitation merges the spirit with the vessel, not the host's soul. The host is either lost or (subject to GM fiat) not lost, but either way has no involvement after the inhabitation is complete.
Whatever mysticism your referring to isn't present in the crunch or fluff (except possibly as a particular tradition's view of spirits, maybe, but then I don't really know what you're on about) so IMO it would be on a par with just ignoring the SR material and making it up yourself. Which is fine, but fruitless to debate.
In SR, however, there's no such thing and (as I quoted before) inhabitation merges the spirit with the vessel, not the host's soul. The host is either lost or (subject to GM fiat) not lost, but either way has no involvement after the inhabitation is complete.
But this is the point..
What if there is a free/ally spirit which is specifically the higher version of a character's soul?
I mean, the spirit creation rules allow for the creation of any type of spirits, right? So why not a higher version of a character's soul which comes from a higher dimension?
Thus when this higher spirit/soul descends into the character's body, the higher spirit/soul and the current soul becomes one.. anyway this is my version of events anyway..
Munchkins! Ho!
I mean, sure you can come up with any story rational you want. You could also just play a free spirit, and inhabit some poor schmuck.
Or you could stop trying to make some twink character that will make everyone else in the game die of diabetes.
I mean, sure you can come up with any story rational you want. You could also just play a free spirit, and inhabit some poor schmuck.
Or you could stop trying to make some twink character that will make everyone else in the game die of diabetes.
I've never heard of 'higher soul', but I'm sure you could make a game-breaking house-rule if you wanted. It's certainly not part of the real game.
QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Aug 17 2010, 04:09 PM)
But this is the point..
What if there is a free/ally spirit which is specifically the higher version of a character's soul?
What if there is a free/ally spirit which is specifically the higher version of a character's soul?
Then you're not playing in the Shadowrun universe.
QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Aug 17 2010, 04:09 PM)
I mean, the spirit creation rules allow for the creation of any type of spirits, right?
Yes, but within the confines of how the Shadowrun universe works. Various traditions (Psionic in particular) may see their spirits as different versions of themselves, but they aren't actually the same entity.
The debate was whether a magician inhabited by his own ally can be considered the same character from a roleplaying perspective and what you seem to be saying is "Yes – just ignore the books and get your GM to say that it is". It's a bit like advising someone on how to break into a building by saying "Easy! Just play in a world that doesn't have locks". Not helpful.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 16 2010, 10:05 PM)
Yes, but you can't use Essence Drain, Fear, or Confusion. Those are Powers.
You can if you use a service.
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