Possession and YOUR powers, As with cyberware? Options

[Neraph]

So you wouldn't allow the use of any of the summoner's powers, including regeneration? Even through channelling?

Exactly right. In fact, all Channeling allows you to do is retain fine motor control, meaning using their own skills (which are normally blocked), and resist spells with the higher of your mental attributes or the spirit's - it says nothing about the spirit gaining access to anything of yours, and neither do the Possession rules.

EDIT: Sidebar, page 102, Street Magic, and Channeling, page 54-55, Street Magic.

Also edited for actual rules. I read it too fast.

[Aerospider]

My character I ran a while back was bigger and scarier than this. Nosferatu mage who ended up using Ally Spirit to get an Inhabitation F8 Spirit to inhabit him, forcing a Hybrid merge, a-la Prince Arthas/Lich King. Having a magic of 8 that he boosted to 16 with all the spirit powers and everything.... Yeah.

Let me find him in my archives...:

[ Spoiler ]

Male Human (Nosferatu)/Free Spirit F8
B 12
A 10
R 11
S 10
C 8
I 8
L 8
W 8
M 8(16)
Ed 6
Ess 18
Ini/IP 19(21)/2(4)
P 14
S 12

Total/Current Karma: 328/57

Street Cred/Notoriety: 2/5

Public Awareness: 0

Movement: 15/25, F7 (6 Successes) Levitate/Movement 35/560

Astral Ini: 16

Skills: Arcana 8, Assensing 8, Astral Combat 8, Blades 8, Counterspelling 8, Enchanting 8, Exotic Ranged Weapon (Elemental Attack) 8, Dodge 8, Perception 8, Spellcasting 8, Unarmed Combat 8

Knowledge Skills: English N

Powers: Astral Form, Banishing Resistance, Compulsion, Concealment, Elemental Attack (Electricity), Elemental Aura (Electricity), Elemental Aura (Fire), Enhanced Senses (Hearing, Low-light, Thermographic), Essence Drain*, Fear, Guard, Immune (Age, Pathogens, Toxins), Infection, Influence, Movement, Natural Weapon (Bite; 1/2S+1P[6P];AP 0;-1 Reach), Psychokinesis, Realistic Form, Regeneration, Sapience, Search, Sense Link

Unique Spirit Powers: Astral Gateway (Hell), Energy Drain (Type:M*Action:Complex*Range:Touch*Duration: Permanent*Karma[Physical])

Weakness: Allergy (Sunlight, Severe), Dietary Requirement (Metahuman Blood), Essence Loss (6 months)

Spells: Alter Memory (M;LOS;P;[F/2]+2), Combat Sense (M;T;S;[F/2]+2)(F5), Crank (P;T;P;F/2), Deflection (P;LOS;S;[F/2]+1)(F7[6 Successes]), Dream (M;LOS;S;[F/2]-1), Fashion (P;T;P;F/2), Healthy Glow (P;T;P[F/2]-1), Increase Reflexes (P;T;S;[F/2]+2)(F4), Levitate (P;LOS;S;[F/2]+1)(F7[6 Successes]), Lightning Bolt (P;LOS;I;[F/2]+3)(F3), Makeover (P;T;P;F/2), Manaball (M;LOS[A];I;[F/2]+2)(F5), Manabolt (M;LOS;I;F/2)(F8[6 Successes]), Mob Mind (M;LOS[A];S;[F/2]+4), Nutrition (P;T;P;F/2)

Initiate Grade I(VI): Ally Conjuration; Absorbtion, Aura Masking, Shielding, Quickening

Positive Qualities: Magician, Restricted Gear

Negative Qualities: Enemy, Vendetta, Carrier (Banshee), Carrier (Dzoo-Noo-Qua), Carrier (Ghoul)

Gear: Longsword (16P; -1/2 AP; Reach 1), Survival Knife (14P;AP -1/2); Ulysses Greatcoat, 1/2 FFBA, Helmet, Forearm/Shin guards (10/9 [8/8]; R4 Chemical Protection/Nonconductivity/Fire Protection); Tricked-out Fairlight Caliban; Dummy Meta Link; F8 Magical Lodge; R6 Respirator; Metal Restraints x4

Programs: R6 Firewall, R6 System, R5 Blades Tutorsoft, R5 Arcana Tutorsoft, Alter Memory Formula, R6 Empathy Software, R6 Facial Recognition Software

Contacts: (Loyalty/Connection): Enemy (Knights of St. Sylvester) 4/1(11), Talislegger 2/1, Skeletrons 3/4(7)

Notes:
nY: 234,480

Tricked-out Fairlight Caliban: System 6, Signal 5((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) , Response 6, Firewall 6. Camera with R6 Empathy/Facial recognition; Glasses (R3 Vision Enhancement); Earbuds (R3 Audio Enhancement); Contacts (Image Link, Flare Compensation, Vision Magnification); Sattelite Link; Trode Net; AR Gloves; Skinlink; Subvocal Microphone; Biomonitor (voice); Sim Module (Hot Sim)

Quickened: F7 (6 Successes) Levitate; F4 Increase Reflexes; F6 Deflection
______________________________________

Black Magic
Combat: Fire
Detection: Water
Health: Earth
Illusion: Air
Manipulation: Man
Drain: Willpower + Charisma
______________________________________
*Essence Drain: Allows up to Normal Essence x3 (instead of x2).

______________________________________
Claymore focus (1/2Str+4P;-1 AP;2 Reach).
F12 Focus (F6 Weapon Focus, F6 Power Focus)
To make: Arcana + Magic (144, 1 day), 1 karma
To bind: 66 karma
Will take 24 days, buying successes (Exotic telesma, 48 Radical Reagents, 4 units Orichalcum).
12 Radical Iron (2,400), 12 Radical Silver (14,400), 12 Radical Copper (4,800), 12 Radical Precious Gems (24,000) (Total: 45,600)
Exotic telesma (28,800)
4 units Orichalcum (200,000)
F6 Power Focus (150,000)
F6 Weapon Focus (60,000)
Grand Total: (484,400)

Ritual Spellcasting 8 = 74 karma.

This is the point where I stopped playing him. That was also about 5 minutes of gametime after I finished the ritual. We (my team and I) lived out in a Z-zone to avoid detection. Between myself and the ghouls I could make we didn't have to worry about other Z-zone regulars messing with us.

EDIT: Not sure if the physical stats are right - supposedly the Force of the Spirit only takes the attributes to Augmented Max. I think all his Physicals would be at 10 then.

Hate to put a dampener on such a fine powerhouse, but this isn't technically a legal PC. Inhabitation destroys the host, regardless of the form taken, except by GM fiat and even then the host is not in any control of the vessel, probably not even receiving any sense data. For the GM to allow you to continue to play the vessel makes perfect gaming sense, but it's not what I'd call the same character. You'd be roleplaying a different entity and for a starting character I think it might be a bit over the 400 BPs ...

Nice end to a doubtlessly-illustrious career though!

[sn0mm1s]

I don't have the time to look up the rules - but I am pretty sure that this wouldn't work. First off, the vamp couldn't summon a second spirit unless he bound the first spirit. Which means the drain resist pool would need to be huge. Secondly, the limits on skill pools puts you in a disadvantage for services - you might not even summon correctly, much less bind. Lastly, I don't think you could bind a Force 20 spirit - unless you lived in a world of perpetual darkness. Once summoned, IIRC it takes Force hours to bind the spirit but an unbound spirit goes home at the next sunrise or sunset. Which means to bind a Force 20 spirit you would need 20 hours between sunrise and sunset.

[Neraph]

Hate to put a dampener on such a fine powerhouse, but this isn't technically a legal PC. Inhabitation destroys the host, regardless of the form taken, except by GM fiat and even then the host is not in any control of the vessel, probably not even receiving any sense data. For the GM to allow you to continue to play the vessel makes perfect gaming sense, but it's not what I'd call the same character. You'd be roleplaying a different entity and for a starting character I think it might be a bit over the 400 BPs ...

Nice end to a doubtlessly-illustrious career though!

The entire debate was in the thread I listed. There is a provision in the rules to allow the vessel to still remain in the fused form.

EDIT:
I may be referencing the "GM fiat" line in the Inhabitation Power, but it still remains that it is possible for something like that to work. The PC is not a fragment floating around inside the spirit; instead, the PC and the spirit have fully merged into one, new creature. Look at Prince Arthas the Lich King. That was my inspiration.

I don't have the time to look up the rules - but I am pretty sure that this wouldn't work. First off, the vamp couldn't summon a second spirit unless he bound the first spirit. Which means the drain resist pool would need to be huge. Secondly, the limits on skill pools puts you in a disadvantage for services - you might not even summon correctly, much less bind. Lastly, I don't think you could bind a Force 20 spirit - unless you lived in a world of perpetual darkness. Once summoned, IIRC it takes Force hours to bind the spirit but an unbound spirit goes home at the next sunrise or sunset. Which means to bind a Force 20 spirit you would need 20 hours between sunrise and sunset.

Where exactly did F20 come from?

In any event, the spirit persists until the ritual is done - I think that's in the FAQ.

[Aerospider]

Exactly right. In fact, all Channeling allows you to do is retain fine motor control, meaning using their own skills (which are normally blocked), and resist spells with the higher of your mental attributes or the spirit's - it says nothing about the spirit gaining access to anything of yours, and neither do the Possession rules.

EDIT: Sidebar, page 102, Street Magic, and Channeling, page 54-55, Street Magic.

Also edited for actual rules. I read it too fast.

Interesting and reasonable, though it was the 'saying nothing' that promtped the question in the first place. I think I'm inclined to agree with you.

Ooh, except that channelling forces the use of the lower mental attribute to resist spells/powers.

[Neraph]

Interesting and reasonable, though it was the 'saying nothing' that promtped the question in the first place. I think I'm inclined to agree with you.

Ooh, except that channelling forces the use of the lower mental attribute to resist spells/powers.

Oh. As mentioned, I was reading it quickly. I also had to fix something else I had posted because of speed reading.

Drat my near-photo reading. I miss things when I don't slow it down on purpose.

[sn0mm1s]

Where exactly did F20 come from?

In any event, the spirit persists until the ritual is done - I think that's in the FAQ.

Uh... the very first post? And if you are using the FAQ then possessed characters are limited to racial maximums.

[Neraph]

Uh... the very first post? And if you are using the FAQ then possessed characters are limited to racial maximums.

Oh. Well as I pointed out the spirit does not get to use your abilities and you do not get to use the spirit's Force. His special attributes overwrite yours and you are not able to use your abilities or powers. Channeling allows you to use your skills, not your powers, and still doesn't allow you to mix-n-match Powers with Special Attributes.

[Aerospider]

The entire debate was in the thread I listed. There is a provision in the rules to allow the vessel to still remain in the fused form.

EDIT:
I may be referencing the "GM fiat" line in the Inhabitation Power, but it still remains that it is possible for something like that to work. The PC is not a fragment floating around inside the spirit; instead, the PC and the spirit have fully merged into one, new creature. Look at Prince Arthas the Lich King. That was my inspiration.

Ah, well I don't wish to resurrect anything, but FYI the following line seems pretty clear cut to me:

"A hybrid form is a hybridization of the vessel and the spirit ..." Inhabitation Merges sidebar, p100, SM, ephasis mine

In any case, it just feels too much like scoring a face-to-face with Lofwyr and saying "Cool, can I be him instead?"

[Neraph]

Ah, well I don't wish to resurrect anything, but FYI the following line seems pretty clear cut to me:

"A hybrid form is a hybridization of the vessel and the spirit ..." Inhabitation Merges sidebar, p100, SM, ephasis mine

In any case, it just feels too much like scoring a face-to-face with Lofwyr and saying "Cool, can I be him instead?"

Eh. That would only come into play when my character finally dies, which is fairly difficult in and of itself.

EDIT: Also, I am one that believes Lofwyr (and all the Greats) would have plenty of defenses against some piddly F8 spirit. Granted I can pump my F to 16, but that doesn't change my stats or skills - it just pumps my Powers and Overcasting possibilities.

[Sephiroth]

Frustratingly, I can't seem to find it in Street Magic atm, but I swear I read somewhere in one of the rulebooks that possession spirits gain access to the vessel's powers - I think the example they gave was of adept powers.

[Traul]

Exactly right. In fact, all Channeling allows you to do is retain fine motor control, meaning using their own skills (which are normally blocked), and resist spells with the higher of your mental attributes or the spirit's - it says nothing about the spirit gaining access to anything of yours, and neither do the Possession rules.

EDIT: Sidebar, page 102, Street Magic, and Channeling, page 54-55, Street Magic.

Also edited for actual rules. I read it too fast.

And most important: Channeling allows you to play your character while possessed. Spirits are NPCs, even if most GMs let the summoner handle his own spirits for ease of play.

[Neraph]

And most important: Channeling allows you to play your character while possessed. Spirits are NPCs, even if most GMs let the summoner handle his own spirits for ease of play.

Right. Definately a good point to make.

[sn0mm1s]

Oh. Well as I pointed out the spirit does not get to use your abilities and you do not get to use the spirit's Force. His special attributes overwrite yours and you are not able to use your abilities or powers. Channeling allows you to use your skills, not your powers, and still doesn't allow you to mix-n-match Powers with Special Attributes.

Which still means you can cast spells and conjure - both of those are skills.

[Neraph]

Which still means you can cast spells and conjure - both of those are skills.

Yes, but you can't use Essence Drain, Fear, or Confusion. Those are Powers.

[Saint Sithney]

Right. Definately a good point to make.

I guess it doesn't really matter if your GM let the Inhabitation work out so that the character wasn't destroyed, since the game ended anyway.

But that's a ruling that, as you pointed out by word and example, ends games. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

[Neraph]

I guess it doesn't really matter if your GM let the Inhabitation work out so that the character wasn't destroyed, since the game ended anyway.

But that's a ruling that, as you pointed out by word and example, ends games. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

What a way to go though, right?

It is possible to tone it down and still have it work for the most part. I spent over 100 karma to get a F8 Ally Spirit. You could do like 40 or less for a F3 and still be fairly "street."

[Aerospider]

EDIT: Also, I am one that believes Lofwyr (and all the Greats) would have plenty of defenses against some piddly F8 spirit. Granted I can pump my F to 16, but that doesn't change my stats or skills - it just pumps my Powers and Overcasting possibilities.

You misunderstand me – my point was that your character came into contact with an NPC and then you switched to playing the NPC.

[V-Origin]

You misunderstand me – my point was that your character came into contact with an NPC and then you switched to playing the NPC.

alright here's a scenario..

i am pretty sure you guys heard of the term "higher soul/spirit" from new agey books..

now what if a higher soul/spirit version of yourself were to inhabit your body and merge with your current soul?

that would fulfill the "soul consumption" part of the deal yet gives you control of your current pc.. just my 2 cents...

[Aerospider]

alright here's a scenario..

i am pretty sure you guys heard of the term "higher soul/spirit" from new agey books..

Um, no ...

now what if a higher soul/spirit version of yourself were to inhabit your body and merge with your current soul?

that would fulfill the "soul consumption" part of the deal yet gives you control of your current pc.. just my 2 cents...

Whatever mysticism your referring to isn't present in the crunch or fluff (except possibly as a particular tradition's view of spirits, maybe, but then I don't really know what you're on about) so IMO it would be on a par with just ignoring the SR material and making it up yourself. Which is fine, but fruitless to debate.

In SR, however, there's no such thing and (as I quoted before) inhabitation merges the spirit with the vessel, not the host's soul. The host is either lost or (subject to GM fiat) not lost, but either way has no involvement after the inhabitation is complete.

[V-Origin]

Um, no ...


Whatever mysticism your referring to isn't present in the crunch or fluff (except possibly as a particular tradition's view of spirits, maybe, but then I don't really know what you're on about) so IMO it would be on a par with just ignoring the SR material and making it up yourself. Which is fine, but fruitless to debate.

In SR, however, there's no such thing and (as I quoted before) inhabitation merges the spirit with the vessel, not the host's soul. The host is either lost or (subject to GM fiat) not lost, but either way has no involvement after the inhabitation is complete.

But this is the point..

What if there is a free/ally spirit which is specifically the higher version of a character's soul?

I mean, the spirit creation rules allow for the creation of any type of spirits, right? So why not a higher version of a character's soul which comes from a higher dimension?

Thus when this higher spirit/soul descends into the character's body, the higher spirit/soul and the current soul becomes one.. anyway this is my version of events anyway..

[sabs]

Munchkins! Ho!

I mean, sure you can come up with any story rational you want. You could also just play a free spirit, and inhabit some poor schmuck.
Or you could stop trying to make some twink character that will make everyone else in the game die of diabetes.

[Yerameyahu]

I've never heard of 'higher soul', but I'm sure you could make a game-breaking house-rule if you wanted. It's certainly not part of the real game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Aerospider]

But this is the point..

What if there is a free/ally spirit which is specifically the higher version of a character's soul?

Then you're not playing in the Shadowrun universe.

I mean, the spirit creation rules allow for the creation of any type of spirits, right?

Yes, but within the confines of how the Shadowrun universe works. Various traditions (Psionic in particular) may see their spirits as different versions of themselves, but they aren't actually the same entity.

The debate was whether a magician inhabited by his own ally can be considered the same character from a roleplaying perspective and what you seem to be saying is "Yes – just ignore the books and get your GM to say that it is". It's a bit like advising someone on how to break into a building by saying "Easy! Just play in a world that doesn't have locks". Not helpful.

[sn0mm1s]

Yes, but you can't use Essence Drain, Fear, or Confusion. Those are Powers.

You can if you use a service.