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> Spirit Tactics, Best uses for old and new spirits
Machiavelli
post Aug 17 2010, 01:39 PM
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This topic is basically what the title says: what are the best uses for the known types of spirits? Do some of you have some real cool ways to make them as effective as possible? Something better than "attack the guys over there". When do you let them materialize, what powers do you think are useful and which ones are not? How do you attack with air and water spirits that have negative modifiers to strenght in materialized form, etc....

I would also need your opinion for this specific situation: During our last run we had to reach a rooftop before some enemy-helicopters reach it. Our goal was a drone laying on that specific rooftop but unfortunately an enemy-mage was waiting in the astral-space and therefore my spirits went *poof* before they could reach the drone. I am not capable of astral projection (mystic-adept) and had no chance to give them spell protection. Any thoughts on this?
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Summerstorm
post Aug 17 2010, 02:28 PM
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Well... The reduced strength of air-spirits does not really matter. Just let them engulf: HIDEOUS damage, instant takedown of one foe (It is hard to get out... normaly only melee-specialists and magicians CAN maybe do it). Engulf is the answer with many other spirits too, i guess. For example the Guidance spirit has a nasty one (engulfing the victim in his own nightmares - no armor/cyber helping you there).

Other than that: All spirit powers not relying on direct damage are often instant takedown for fights... also perfect tools for interogation or turning someone to your side: Compulsion, Influence. Also fear is likely to get one foe per round out of your way, but they might come back a few minutes later (and a few people are imune to fear. GUTS-users and some cyber/genetech)

ALL spirit powers are not subject to counterspelling (except the natural spell of course) so even a midlevel spirit can take migthy enemies.

Also sometimes even a midlevel spirit is funny to invoke (if you can) as he automagically can use powers on groups of people... So pretty much: Spirit materializes - next IP the fight is won if it isn't IMMEDIATLY destroyed. But don't forget: If your spirit isn't a Guardian or Guidance spirit, you need to be there if the opposition has a mage... to provide counterspelling.
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Dashifen
post Aug 17 2010, 03:09 PM
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QUOTE
I would also need your opinion for this specific situation: During our last run we had to reach a rooftop before some enemy-helicopters reach it. Our goal was a drone laying on that specific rooftop but unfortunately an enemy-mage was waiting in the astral-space and therefore my spirits went *poof* before they could reach the drone. I am not capable of astral projection (mystic-adept) and had no chance to give them spell protection. Any thoughts on this?


Some spirits have Magical Guard which gives them the ability to counterspell. But I think only those from Street Magic have that power. You also don't need to project in order to provide counter spelling on astral entities so getting astral perception might be handy if you think this sort of thing could come up again.

As for tactics: don't forget that Concealment doesn't have to be used on yourself and there's no resistance for the target, only for those who perceive. Consider how bad ass it would be for a spirit to conceal a target, then kill it, and then all the body to reappear. His friends see Fred disappear and the reappear dead with no real explanation. Granted, the Concealment could be beaten but a straight -Force to Perception is pretty devastating! Also, creative use of Accident can be sometimes more effective than more direct confrontation.
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Machiavelli
post Aug 17 2010, 04:32 PM
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As much as i know concealment also works for astral perception. But unfortunately spirits don´t have the infiltration skill. So one success would be enough to see as concealed spirit?
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Mooncrow
post Aug 17 2010, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Aug 17 2010, 12:32 PM) *
As much as i know concealment also works for astral perception. But unfortunately spirits don´t have the infiltration skill. So one success would be enough to see as concealed spirit?


Concealment subtracts successes from perception tests equal to the spirit's magic, so I believe it would take 6 successes to see a force 5 spirit using concealment? I could be wrong, but that's how I play.
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Johnny B. Good
post Aug 17 2010, 07:07 PM
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QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 17 2010, 07:03 PM) *
Concealment subtracts successes from perception tests equal to the spirit's magic, so I believe it would take 6 successes to see a force 5 spirit using concealment? I could be wrong, but that's how I play.


We had problems with this mechanic, as it's waaaaaay broken. Any schmuck with a force 5 spirit is now the Invisible Man. We play it as "Force subtracts from perceiver's dicepool."
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Mooncrow
post Aug 17 2010, 07:22 PM
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QUOTE (Johnny B. Good @ Aug 17 2010, 02:07 PM) *
We had problems with this mechanic, as it's waaaaaay broken. Any schmuck with a force 5 spirit is now the Invisible Man. We play it as "Force subtracts from perceiver's dicepool."


yeah, it's pretty powerful, but sadly the other way makes it useless =/ I usually just houserule a bunch of modifiers depending on what the PCs are doing with it^^
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Traul
post Aug 17 2010, 07:46 PM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Aug 17 2010, 06:32 PM) *
But unfortunately spirits don´t have the infiltration skill. So one success would be enough to see as concealed spirit?

Spirits can default.
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Ranarion
post Aug 17 2010, 08:20 PM
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QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 17 2010, 07:03 PM) *
Concealment subtracts successes from perception tests equal to the spirit's magic, so I believe it would take 6 successes to see a force 5 spirit using concealment? I could be wrong, but that's how I play.


In my Books they do subtract Dices.
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pbangarth
post Aug 18 2010, 02:34 AM
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Yeah, SR4A, p. 293 say to subtract dice equal to the spirit's Magic (usually Force).
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Badmoodguy88
post Aug 18 2010, 06:58 AM
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But concealment does work against any sense. Including astral, and apparently noise (which is a little silly because there is also a silence power).

Probably if you are using every sense it subtracts magic dice to the perception test. But if the person perceiving is just listening, just hearing, or just using astral then it subtracts the full magic dice against the smaller dice pool. It still makes it fairly useless but it probably does stack with other stealth gear and infiltration attempts. Adding shadow cloak and silence would also help.

To make this power worth wile you would need to pay close attention to when different senses are useful.
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Mooncrow
post Aug 18 2010, 07:02 AM
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Actually, I'm just dumb and somehow completely misread the power and didn't look at it closely again until today (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Wasabi
post Aug 18 2010, 11:01 AM
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I like using the Concealment power between my team and a given target to make it harder for the target to receive Counterspelling from others.
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Irion
post Aug 18 2010, 11:58 AM
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Well, the guardian spirit is a Hell of a fighter.
Lets take a Force 8 spirit. (8 dices against summoning is doable and gives you about 6 damage to soak.)
Now hand this spirit a gun with the appropriat skill chosen.
The spirit gets 2 points of recoil compensation, due to strength.
Has 2 IPs, 11 dices to dodge bullets, 18 dices to shoot someone.
Last but not least 16 Points of hardent armor and a total of 25 dices to soak damage (9 body).

It is close to impossible to bring him down with magic, due to 16 dices for counterspelling.
So banishing is the only way to get rid of him for mages.
Mudane need Flamethrowers, high end Lasers, Sonic or Gaus Rifles.
If you add concealment and infiltration to the mix, it gets even worse.
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Mäx
post Aug 18 2010, 12:21 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Aug 18 2010, 01:58 PM) *
Mudane need Flamethrowers, high end Lasers, Sonic or Gaus Rifles.

Or just a good taser, the one that has DV 8. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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LurkerOutThere
post Aug 18 2010, 12:41 PM
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*sigh*

People don't understand the concealment power which leads to them thinking it can do stuff it can't. On the most basic level it's concealment not invisibility. The difference is important as concealment can't hide something already visible (and therefore no perception test), concealment only works on things that the target is unaware of for the duration. So in the specific instance of conceal a guy amidst a group of enemies then have the spirit kill him and then "uninvis" that doesn't work. Likewise a spirit throwing concealment on someone in the middle of a room doesn't make them go poof.

As others have said the spirits force also takes away dice not hits.
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Irion
post Aug 18 2010, 12:51 PM
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@Mäx
Well, I only find one with 7DV.
But keep in mind, that this is melee. And against melee you get reaction+skill. So your fighting about 11+8=19 dice. You won't hit him. Not to mention, it is a complex action to attack.
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Mäx
post Aug 18 2010, 12:54 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Aug 18 2010, 02:51 PM) *
@Mäx
Well, I only find one with 7DV.
But keep in mind, that this is melee. And against melee you get reaction+skill. So your fighting about 11+8=19 dices. You won't hit him. Not to mention, it is a complex action to attack.

Not a stun baton, a taser, more specifically a pair of Defiance EX Shockers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
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Johnny B. Good
post Aug 18 2010, 12:57 PM
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Or you could just call in your friendly neighborhood Archer-Troll.
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Aerospider
post Aug 18 2010, 01:02 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Aug 18 2010, 01:51 PM) *
dices

Please don't write that, it makes my skin crawl to read it.

One regular polyhedron with numbered faces = a die
Two or more regular polyhedra with numbered faces = some dice
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pbangarth
post Aug 18 2010, 01:26 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Aug 18 2010, 07:58 AM) *
It is close to impossible to bring him down with magic, due to 16 dices for counterspelling.
Well, 8 dice for Counterspelling, added to 8 of the appropriate Attribute for 16 dice to resist.

Yeah, a Force 8 spirit of any stripe is tough.
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DireRadiant
post Aug 18 2010, 01:59 PM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Aug 17 2010, 11:32 AM) *
As much as i know concealment also works for astral perception. But unfortunately spirits don´t have the infiltration skill. So one success would be enough to see as concealed spirit?


I thought Concealment is a Physical power?
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Traul
post Aug 18 2010, 02:21 PM
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Yes, but it is written that it works against astral perception too. It's magic.
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Badmoodguy88
post Aug 18 2010, 02:42 PM
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QUOTE
Likewise a spirit throwing concealment on someone in the middle of a room doesn't make them go poof.

I don't see why it does not make them go poof. It would just be hard to make them go poof.

Take an average noncombatant person: intuition of 3, perception skill of 1 and no enhancements.
Before modifiers Magic 6 concealment would remove all dice for perception but there would be modifiers. If you add on shadow cloak, Ruthenium Polymer, and silence why would it not make someone relatively undetectable? If someone steps back into the shadows and you can not see them, you still know they are their, but you still can not see them.
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Summerstorm
post Aug 18 2010, 02:58 PM
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Well, it would be. BUT: Perception tests do get a LOT of modifiers. (Also even an not-combatant is often likely to have improvements (cybereyes for example))

Say Intuition 3, Perception 1. You was looking at someone, than he "blurred away". You find this weird and try to focus:
+3 dice for actively looking.
+2 dice for looking at something standing out (It is a dude in plain sight)
-6 concealment maybe (if spirit is force 6)
=-1; Three dice left too look into that, likely you might find him... but you cannot really identify him.

Now if someone who you don't know was there just ninjaed into the room: No chance to see him. I shudder at pixie-infiltrationists. Well, good thing we have closed doors and sensor systems everywhere it counts... but in a gang-hideout you can ghost whoever you want. The only ones living will be the ones escaping.
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