This topic is basically what the title says: what are the best uses for the known types of spirits? Do some of you have some real cool ways to make them as effective as possible? Something better than "attack the guys over there". When do you let them materialize, what powers do you think are useful and which ones are not? How do you attack with air and water spirits that have negative modifiers to strenght in materialized form, etc....

I would also need your opinion for this specific situation: During our last run we had to reach a rooftop before some enemy-helicopters reach it. Our goal was a drone laying on that specific rooftop but unfortunately an enemy-mage was waiting in the astral-space and therefore my spirits went *poof* before they could reach the drone. I am not capable of astral projection (mystic-adept) and had no chance to give them spell protection. Any thoughts on this?

Well... The reduced strength of air-spirits does not really matter. Just let them engulf: HIDEOUS damage, instant takedown of one foe (It is hard to get out... normaly only melee-specialists and magicians CAN maybe do it). Engulf is the answer with many other spirits too, i guess. For example the Guidance spirit has a nasty one (engulfing the victim in his own nightmares - no armor/cyber helping you there).

Other than that: All spirit powers not relying on direct damage are often instant takedown for fights... also perfect tools for interogation or turning someone to your side: Compulsion, Influence. Also fear is likely to get one foe per round out of your way, but they might come back a few minutes later (and a few people are imune to fear. GUTS-users and some cyber/genetech)

ALL spirit powers are not subject to counterspelling (except the natural spell of course) so even a midlevel spirit can take migthy enemies.

Also sometimes even a midlevel spirit is funny to invoke (if you can) as he automagically can use powers on groups of people... So pretty much: Spirit materializes - next IP the fight is won if it isn't IMMEDIATLY destroyed. But don't forget: If your spirit isn't a Guardian or Guidance spirit, you need to be there if the opposition has a mage... to provide counterspelling.

Some spirits have Magical Guard which gives them the ability to counterspell. But I think only those from Street Magic have that power. You also don't need to project in order to provide counter spelling on astral entities so getting astral perception might be handy if you think this sort of thing could come up again.

As for tactics: don't forget that Concealment doesn't have to be used on yourself and there's no resistance for the target, only for those who perceive. Consider how bad ass it would be for a spirit to conceal a target, then kill it, and then all the body to reappear. His friends see Fred disappear and the reappear dead with no real explanation. Granted, the Concealment could be beaten but a straight -Force to Perception is pretty devastating! Also, creative use of Accident can be sometimes more effective than more direct confrontation.

As much as i know concealment also works for astral perception. But unfortunately spirits don´t have the infiltration skill. So one success would be enough to see as concealed spirit?

Concealment subtracts successes from perception tests equal to the spirit's magic, so I believe it would take 6 successes to see a force 5 spirit using concealment? I could be wrong, but that's how I play.

We had problems with this mechanic, as it's waaaaaay broken. Any schmuck with a force 5 spirit is now the Invisible Man. We play it as "Force subtracts from perceiver's dicepool."

yeah, it's pretty powerful, but sadly the other way makes it useless =/ I usually just houserule a bunch of modifiers depending on what the PCs are doing with it^^

Spirits can default.

In my Books they do subtract Dices.

Yeah, SR4A, p. 293 say to subtract dice equal to the spirit's Magic (usually Force).

But concealment does work against any sense. Including astral, and apparently noise (which is a little silly because there is also a silence power).

Probably if you are using every sense it subtracts magic dice to the perception test. But if the person perceiving is just listening, just hearing, or just using astral then it subtracts the full magic dice against the smaller dice pool. It still makes it fairly useless but it probably does stack with other stealth gear and infiltration attempts. Adding shadow cloak and silence would also help.

To make this power worth wile you would need to pay close attention to when different senses are useful.

Actually, I'm just dumb and somehow completely misread the power and didn't look at it closely again until today

I like using the Concealment power between my team and a given target to make it harder for the target to receive Counterspelling from others.

Well, the guardian spirit is a Hell of a fighter.
Lets take a Force 8 spirit. (8 dices against summoning is doable and gives you about 6 damage to soak.)
Now hand this spirit a gun with the appropriat skill chosen.
The spirit gets 2 points of recoil compensation, due to strength.
Has 2 IPs, 11 dices to dodge bullets, 18 dices to shoot someone.
Last but not least 16 Points of hardent armor and a total of 25 dices to soak damage (9 body).

It is close to impossible to bring him down with magic, due to 16 dices for counterspelling.
So banishing is the only way to get rid of him for mages.
Mudane need Flamethrowers, high end Lasers, Sonic or Gaus Rifles.
If you add concealment and infiltration to the mix, it gets even worse.

Or just a good taser, the one that has DV 8.

*sigh*

People don't understand the concealment power which leads to them thinking it can do stuff it can't. On the most basic level it's concealment not invisibility. The difference is important as concealment can't hide something already visible (and therefore no perception test), concealment only works on things that the target is unaware of for the duration. So in the specific instance of conceal a guy amidst a group of enemies then have the spirit kill him and then "uninvis" that doesn't work. Likewise a spirit throwing concealment on someone in the middle of a room doesn't make them go poof.

As others have said the spirits force also takes away dice not hits.

@Mäx
Well, I only find one with 7DV.
But keep in mind, that this is melee. And against melee you get reaction+skill. So your fighting about 11+8=19 dice. You won't hit him. Not to mention, it is a complex action to attack.

Not a stun baton, a taser, more specifically a pair of Defiance EX Shockers

Or you could just call in your friendly neighborhood Archer-Troll.

Please don't write that, it makes my skin crawl to read it.

One regular polyhedron with numbered faces = a die
Two or more regular polyhedra with numbered faces = some dice

Well, 8 dice for Counterspelling, added to 8 of the appropriate Attribute for 16 dice to resist.

Yeah, a Force 8 spirit of any stripe is tough.

I thought Concealment is a Physical power?

Yes, but it is written that it works against astral perception too. It's magic.

I don't see why it does not make them go poof. It would just be hard to make them go poof.

Take an average noncombatant person: intuition of 3, perception skill of 1 and no enhancements.
Before modifiers Magic 6 concealment would remove all dice for perception but there would be modifiers. If you add on shadow cloak, Ruthenium Polymer, and silence why would it not make someone relatively undetectable? If someone steps back into the shadows and you can not see them, you still know they are their, but you still can not see them.

Well, it would be. BUT: Perception tests do get a LOT of modifiers. (Also even an not-combatant is often likely to have improvements (cybereyes for example))

Say Intuition 3, Perception 1. You was looking at someone, than he "blurred away". You find this weird and try to focus:
+3 dice for actively looking.
+2 dice for looking at something standing out (It is a dude in plain sight)
-6 concealment maybe (if spirit is force 6)
=-1; Three dice left too look into that, likely you might find him... but you cannot really identify him.

Now if someone who you don't know was there just ninjaed into the room: No chance to see him. I shudder at pixie-infiltrationists. Well, good thing we have closed doors and sensor systems everywhere it counts... but in a gang-hideout you can ghost whoever you want. The only ones living will be the ones escaping.

I don't see how giving the dice penalty of operating in heavy smoke with a medium level spirit is useless. -4 should cut a trained guard's pool in half, and, when you consider that it stacks with every other negative modifier, and Infiltration, Concealment is one of the most reasonable and good powers out there.

Just because it's not as broken as every other aspect of magic doesn't make it bad.

Mage buys a chameleon suit (they can do that too,) takes a couple levels of infiltration (also this,) and summons a force 4 spirit to Conceal him. Now, he's moving at -10 to spot and -4 to hear or hit with radar. On top of that, they'd have to get multiple hits to beat his Infiltration roll.

It's better than anyone else can do without it..

I'm not saying it's worthless, I'm just saying it's not *ninja vanish* "Hey where did fred go!" A lot of it is GM fiat but my rule of thumb has always been concealment makes perception tests very difficult but it doesn't force a perception test for what would otherwise not be.

The example for Perception tests in the rules includes noticing a neon sign.

Hey when you walk down the street you don't notice everything, or at least I don't. But if I am looking around, the neon sign is in plain sight, and it is not trying to use infiltration, then I will probably notice it.

Sneaky neon signs are stalking you, Badmoodguy88, and you're not perceptive enough to notice them! Boooooo!

Sneaky neonsigns ruined our last run, so BEWARE!!!^^

That's not funny, my megacorp died that way!

Interesting. I've always seen it more like casting an Imp. Invis or Trid Phantasm spell. The use of the spell -- or in this case spirit power -- necessitates a perception test due to the fact that it changes what the characters' senses are sensing.

Imp. Invis is weird because it effectively warps light around you but it is still an all or nothing thing. You completely see them or completely do not see them. Concealment is a lot like a smoke grenade or Ruthenium Polymer because both subtract from the opposing person's dice pool. That said I do think a smoke grenade could let some one *ninja vanish* along with Ruthenium Polymer, shadow cloak, and Concealment.

Good point.

Interesting.

I find P. 292 SR4A "Note that in order for a creature to use a power against a target,
they must share the same “state:” astral or physical. Astral forms cannot
affect physical targets, and vice versa (see The Astral World, p. 191).
Astral critters that materialize can affect physical targets, however, just
as dual natured critters can interact with both the physical and astral
planes equally effectively."

Then p. 293 "Type: Powers may be either mana (M) or physical (P), just like
spells (see p. 203). Mana powers do not affect nonliving targets, whereas
physical powers cannot be used in astral space or affect astral forms."

And then
"This power refers to a critter’s ability to mystically hide itself or
others, or alternatively to hide something that people are looking
for. Concealment subtracts a number of dice equal to the critter’s
Magic from any Perception Tests to locate the concealed subject.
Concealment can be used on a number of targets simultaneously equal
to the critter’s Magic; concealed subjects can see each other if the critter
allows it. Concealment also allows dual natured critters to conceal
themselves and others from astral detection."

I assume you are referring to the "Critters" sentence ?

It is a little obvious, but I like to use the movement power for get aways. The gm would add a penalty to our wheelman's driving test, but that is fine when you can hit 300mph.

Or using movement on the party's troll so he could get into melee very quickly.

Yeah, a recent run literally got off the ground when we used this power to speed an overloaded plane enough to take off.

I'm always tempted to make use of the influence power on my team mates at the end of the run.

"So that's 10,000 for me and a pie for you, just like we agreed."
"Wow, I didn't think you meant a whole pie!"

You might be thinking of Alter Memory. Influence just makes them perform an action. You could Influence them to agree but not to keep their word indefinitely or you could Influence them to spend it on your behalf but to make them want to give it to you takes an altered memory or compulsion/control thoughts/mob mind.

The thing stopping that urge is no doubt your sense of self preservation.

Actually influence doesn't make anyone do anything (that would be Compulsion), it just makes them think something. For example, you can make two people think the building's on fire and one might run for the exit whilst the other starts looking for an extinguisher. This gives it a lot of overlap with Alter Memory, as you can make someone think something about the past that is at variance to what they thought before.

Yep.
<sigh>
Isn't it always?

..Oh, wow. I'm doing that to someone, sometime. If not influence, then MC or SOMETHING....

-Tir

This just popped into my head, and I had to record it somewhere:)


...And so it came to pass, that Thogmaster, Slicer, Concrete and the Bloody Rook decided to geek their mage companion Hoppy Pothead because 10k is a lot of money.
And a pie was a pie.
But at the appointed time, they looked at each other sheepishly over weapons most dire, shrugged and walked away from the fast-asleep Hoppy.



For although a team member had fragged them over...it was still an awesome pie.

You should try combining it with a levitation spell and an auto-rickshaw. It has the side effect of giving the GM giggle fits, apparently.