When Wards Collide Options

[twilite]

Now that wards are mobile (I am correct that you can put them on mobile vehicles, yes?) what happens if you drive your warded vehicle into a warded area? I couldn't seem to find rules for colliding astral forms other than entities breaking or sleazing wards. Could just be my poor research, can anyone point me in the right direction?

[Kronk2]

IIRC You would need to make an object resistance test for both wards, and I would follow by a crash test as well. Think of it as hitting a wall.

[killfr3nzy]

IIRC You would need to make an object resistance test for both wards, and I would follow by a crash test as well. Think of it as hitting a wall.

Except that an Assensing Mage trying to run through a Barrier he didn't see - and failing - is knocked out (Stun) mentally rather than smashed up (Physical) in the meat.

I've had this question for ages, since mobile Wards are only possible through use as Biofiber - as far as I know. So, would the Biofiber;
A) Die (Gone forever OR Lose Force, perhaps temporarily - hey it's a plant, they can grow back)
B) Be wounded (Just take damage - although then you've still got the question of movement, unless it 'punches a hole' temporarily)
C) Have it's little planty brain 'knocked-out'. (Although even this is stupid, because it's Dual-Natured, meaning it's always on/a barrier).

This isn't just a small issue. What happens when your smuggler tries to defeat Airport Security with his shielded smuggling Cyberware? Escaping with the McGuffin in a shielded briefcase, to stop Track attempts? Try to punch a Projecting mage with a Biofibre-lined gauntlet?

[Mäx]

You get mobile wards just as well by warding the trunk of your vehicle, just like you would ward a building.

[Wasabi]

Remember that wards have a minimum size so you cannae have warded Capsule Rounds, etc.

[LurkerOutThere]

Why would there be a crash test? It's not like the wards colliding has an affect on the physical.

[Aaron]

I'd just use the Opposed Magic/Force Test given on p. 194 of your hymnal.

[killfr3nzy]

I'd just use the Opposed Magic/Force Test given on p. 194 of your hymnal.

So you'd suggest that we go Biofiber Fx2 vs Ward Fx2? What happens if the Biofiber loses? Mages get knocked out, Spirits are disrupted, Biofibre are....plants.

[TommyTwoToes]

So you'd suggest that we go Biofiber Fx2 vs Ward Fx2? What happens if the Biofiber loses? Mages get knocked out, Spirits are disrupted, Biofibre are....plants.

They are Dual Natured so they stay active on the Astral, I think they would have to overflow from stun into physical. What happens to a ghoul in an elevator that passes through a ward?

[killfr3nzy]

Squishy Death. Hmmm, didn't think that far. Thank ye kindly. Now I know my biofiber-lined bat has a variable limited amount of use, so I should carry a few.

[Dahrken]

What happens to a ghoul in an elevator that passes through a ward?

There is an opposed roll between the ghoul and the ward (AFB and can't remember exactly what are the dice pools for the ghoul - or any other dual-natured entity in the same situation - and for the ward).

If the ward loose the contest, it is disrupted and need to be redone, if the ghoul loose the contest he/she is knocked out (Stun damage track filled).

[TommyTwoToes]

If the ward loose the contest, it is disrupted and need to be redone, if the ghoul loose the contest he/she is knocked out (Stun damage track filled).

I am also AFB, but IIRC being knocked out does not stop a Dual Natured critter from being astrally active, so they continue to get rammed into the barrier. Stun should overflow into physical and that, as they say, is all she wrote.

[Warlordtheft]

I'm AFB too.--IIRC they just go through it once. And go unconcious. If they go through again they (while unconcious) don't take any more stun.

Reason:
Example goul with 10 point stun damage track takes 3 stun, then while escaping via an elavator goes through a ward. The stun damage track fills up to 10 and he goes unconcious (7S damage not 10S damage, and it is unresisted).

Back OT-Suggested mechanic Opposed check-the Wards force+Magicians Magic for both wards. The winner survives, the other collapses.

[killfr3nzy]

So my Mage-basher can fail twice before becoming useless. Good to know.
Thanks, everyone.

[Trevalier]

So you'd suggest that we go Biofiber Fx2 vs Ward Fx2? What happens if the Biofiber loses? Mages get knocked out, Spirits are disrupted, Biofibre are....plants.

The biofiber has a Force rating like any other astral barrier and functions in the same manner (see p. 185)...Destroying the astral barrier kills the biofiber.

For example, a character who unknowingly walks through a mana barrier carrying an active focus, or a dual being in an elevator that passes through a ward on its way up. In this case, make the same Opposed Test described above (using Force x 2 for spells, spirits, foci, etc). If the barrier wins, however, the item or entity still breaks through but is automatically disrupted.

From this, I gather that if you try to force biofiber through a ward (or other astral barrier), you make the Fx2 test. If the biofiber wins, it passes through; if it loses, its own barrier is disrupted, and it dies.

The quote from page 186 also appears to mean no squishy death for the ghoul in the elevator. It will break through the barrier, but be knocked out.

[TommyTwoToes]

I'm AFB too.--IIRC they just go through it once. And go unconcious. If they go through again they (while unconcious) don't take any more stun.

Reason:
Example goul with 10 point stun damage track takes 3 stun, then while escaping via an elavator goes through a ward. The stun damage track fills up to 10 and he goes unconcious (7S damage not 10S damage, and it is unresisted).

Back OT-Suggested mechanic Opposed check-the Wards force+Magicians Magic for both wards. The winner survives, the other collapses.

The problem with the way the information is written (again IIRC) is that the example addresses only a Mage against the ward. A Dual Natured entity (full time DN not just Astral perception) should not drop to Mundane status upon unconciousness and therefore should not be able to penetrate the ward. Otherwise you could pack carry a sleeping Dual Natured critter past the physical boundary of a ward and then wake them up on the other side. Unconciousness should not be a valid counter to wards.

[Runner Smurf]

The rules in SR4A use the term "disrupted" for what happens when an astrally active object/person hits an astral barrier and doesn't break through. Disrupted means different things to different objects: foci are deactivated, spells immediately end, spirits tossed back to their metaplane of choice and "disrupted characters are knocked unconscious (fill in their entire Stun Condition Monitor)."

From that, it seems fairly clear to me that an already Stun-Damaged character does not run the risk of overflow into Physical Damage - if that were the case, the RAW if that were the intent would be "they take XX boxes of stun damage."

As for the ghoul-mashing elevator, I don't think it would work. They don't pass through the barrier because they are unconscious and no longer astrally active - they are disrupted because they passed through the barrier while being . Being rendered unconscious is the effect of disruption.

Of course, you might argue that a dual-natured entity isn't mentioned in the rules specifically. I'd categorize them as a "character" and apply those rules. Your mileage may vary, and give dual-natured entities another effect. I'd recommend against a lethal interpretation, as it would lead to all sorts of very messy problems, and make a lot of dual-natured critters (like dragons) waaaaaaay too easy to trap and kill.

Also, as a GM, I'd have to come down hard against the biofiber bat. Arsenal is pretty clear that the stuff is grown in large sheets, is difficult to keep alive and is highly sensitive to pollution.

[killfr3nzy]

Also, as a GM, I'd have to come down hard against the biofiber bat. Arsenal is pretty clear that the stuff is grown in large sheets, is difficult to keep alive and is highly sensitive to pollution.

Honestly, I don't think I'd even have one a lot of the time. Ain't exactly versatile. although, yeah I could hit someone with it... It would tend to make any passing Mage/Spirit paranoid, and extra attention from security is not what I need. The idea only came about because I wanted to add a Biofiber layer to an armoured suit to annoy Mages, then I thought 'Hey, what happens if I punch an Astral Form' and then I thought 'Hey, what easy-to-carry weapon could I carry around yet fit some mold into?'. Then I mainly posted it for the thought of the advertising.
"The Pevert-Popper 3,000 - smack any peeping tom-mage into unconsciousness!!"

But it should be easy enough - large sheets can be cut/rolled up, kept in a secure chamber in the center of the bat/inner layer of armour/wherever, and pollution? Okay, we do the same things that Drones and Corps with it in the walls do - whether that's a miniature respirator or dedicated oxygen supply, I don't know.

As for the ghoul-mashing elevator, I don't think it would work. They don't pass through the barrier because they are unconscious and no longer astrally active - they are disrupted because they passed through the barrier while being . Being rendered unconscious is the effect of disruption.

Of course, you might argue that a dual-natured entity isn't mentioned in the rules specifically. I'd categorize them as a "character" and apply those rules. Your mileage may vary, and give dual-natured entities another effect. I'd recommend against a lethal interpretation, as it would lead to all sorts of very messy problems, and make a lot of dual-natured critters (like dragons) waaaaaaay too easy to trap and kill.

They only things that stop you being Dual-Natured is losing all your magic, or death. Of course, some creatures can't lose all their magic without dieing, like Vampires (I think). Now, I could possibly see you suffering a far-less-pleasant 'La petite mort' and die for a moment, prompting either a mere full Stun track or the immediate need for some medical attention. As for not being D-N'd while unconscious, how does that work at all? Do mages become Mundane when they sleep? If they did, they wouldn't wake up as a Mage.

And Dragons easy to kill? Pff, not at all. The elevator example is kinda bad - how many elevators would a Dragon travel in, and there's not many similar situations.
But to use it - what paranoid (as all Dragons are) willingly goes somewhere without having his route checked by a loyal minion (say, a F12 scout Spirit). And if he did, or was forced to, his dice pool is far larger than any humans. Hell maybe they know some Metamagic '+X to destroy Wards'.
And if he couldn't break it on his first go, he'd whistle up some Bound Spirits and tell them to get to work while he did the same - destroy the barrier, stop the elevator, what have you. If it was a falling elevator, he'd be pinned between what was - to him - two solid walls, and take damage - which would have to get past his fairly large dice pool. But he wouldn't 'chunky salsa' until he was dead, which means more tests until something gives - probably the same as the original test, as wound/distraction penalties might be increased by velocity/increased weight bonus'.
Heh, he might end up winded, resting on top of the groaning Ward, with the top of the elevator sitting on his back.

A Ghoul would, needless to say, die a lot easier. There might still be more tests (to him, the barrier is physical, so you do what anyone does when they hit the ground hard - bounce, and hit again. Knowledge-able allies might try and push/pull him through while he seemingly levitates up through the elevator, and then another test with the elevator at his back before squishing occurs), although since he can't actually be forced to pass through the barrier and thus be knocked out until the roof hits him, I won't need to work out what happens when unconscious people make concentration tests until he should have worked out that using his Edge is a good idea.

And that's the last barrier to instant death - burning Edge. The only reason I needed it was for the 'smack-with-Biofiber' idea.
EDIT: Urgh, I'm an idiot. Hitting an Astral Form with Biofiber likely does fuck-all if the Biofiber loses. Both the AF and Biofiber treat each other as solid objects, and the latter's a barrier aka WALL, so unless the other is also a barrier, the Biofiber bounces off, just like any other physical-bat on a physical person.

[Dahrken]

Please note that in the elevator scenario the dual-natured entity body moves physically through the ward even if it loose the contest and is dropped unconscious. It is neither crushed on the floor (if the elevator goes up) nor lifted to the ceiling if it is going down. A ward has NO physical effect, it's purely an astral construct.

The physical body passes through if mechanically forced to, making the opposed test necessary. If the entity is already unconscious but still dual-natured (like a DN critterrather than an astrally-perceiving mage who splatted his astral nose on a previous ward)), forcing it though extra wards will force a new test for each, either collapsing the ward or filling the Stun Monitor - which is already full so this will incur no extra effect beyond resetting the timer to check if the now twice-disrupted critter regain consciousness.

So stunning a dual-natured critter is NOT an easy workaround around a ward, you still have a chance to crash it and alert the creator that something happened.

[Runner Smurf]

Killfrenzy -

My point is this, the rules don't say that a dual natured creature can't pass through the wards. It says what happens when an astrally active entity is forced through the ward - either the ward fails, or they get disrupted. Which, for a character means they go unconscious with a full stun condition monitor. It has nothing to do with their magic rating, whether they are still astrally active or whatever.

The SR4A book specifically uses the dual-natured creature in an elevator as an example. They don't mention that he is beaten to death against the ward...it's the kind of thing that I think they'd mention, don't you?

As for the biofiber bat...you might be able to convince a GM to let it happen, though again, the rules are pretty clear about what the restrictions are. Still, there are some serious problems with carrying an astrally active object that glows like a beacon and can't be turned off. You'll start interacting with wards, and attracting the attention of every astral entity around. I'd have a field day with any mundane character that did that. Thank Ghost they got rid of the grounding rules in 4th ed, otherwise you'd be a walking target.

[killfr3nzy]

Killfrenzy -

My point is this, the rules don't say that a dual natured creature can't pass through the wards. It says what happens when an astrally active entity is forced through the ward - either the ward fails, or they get disrupted. Which, for a character means they go unconscious with a full stun condition monitor. It has nothing to do with their magic rating, whether they are still astrally active or whatever.

The SR4A book specifically uses the dual-natured creature in an elevator as an example. They don't mention that he is beaten to death against the ward...it's the kind of thing that I think they'd mention, don't you?

As for the biofiber bat...you might be able to convince a GM to let it happen, though again, the rules are pretty clear about what the restrictions are. Still, there are some serious problems with carrying an astrally active object that glows like a beacon and can't be turned off. You'll start interacting with wards, and attracting the attention of every astral entity around. I'd have a field day with any mundane character that did that. Thank Ghost they got rid of the grounding rules in 4th ed, otherwise you'd be a walking target.

Ahhh....see, I finally read that specific part again to gain proof, and I realised I forgot the part where they automaticaly get through. I thought being forced through just knocked you out, and because you were knocked out you stopped Assensing, thus removing the thing holding you back. Dual-Natured cannot lose that, so I figure different stuff happened. Well, that should (but likely won't) teach me to read the rules more often. Thanks.

As to the bat... Well, you would get more attention, like I already said. But Biofiber isn't even a restricted item, so they can't pull you up for it - though they can hassle you, 'co-incidentally' more often when you have it. It's thus no more damning than a registered side-arm. I figure most street patrols have a Watcher, with only a dogbrain and Assensing 1. In higher-traffic/danger areas, they'd probably have an F3 Spirit instead. Plus while the bat is 'shining', so is every other living thing in sight. And I very much doubt I'd lobby for one unless I was a Mundane non-Rigger.
Biofiber in my armour, now...that's different. Full Armoursuit + R1o Biofiber layer is effectively a disguise, anyway.

Hmmm, now I'm wondering what happens with Shielded Smuggling Compartment 'Ware. Does the body protect it/reduce DP from sight and/or 'encase' it so that it just travels inside the character and ignore Wards?