IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> NAN Tribal Contraversy, or, how tell the real thing after the Awakening, maybe
Kalvan
post Aug 20 2010, 01:39 PM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 174
Joined: 21-May 06
Member No.: 8,583



I realize that this post could cause flame wars. That is not my intention, and I'm sorry if it does. (And if it's too inflamatory, I won't protest if the moderators choose to instantly close it, dock me Karma, and/or ban me for a {long} while). I will be using quotes to denote Federally non recognised tribes, without intentional prejudice to the merits of their claim.

Googling the string "fake tribes" at random came up with mentions of several groups claming not just descent from pre-Columbian Native American tribes, but actual continuity of tradition that is severely disputed. In some cases, like the "Washitaws," the "Erie Moundbuilders," the Delorme "Bands" of the Little Shell Pembina Ojibwas, and something called the "Wampanoag Nation" of Utah(!), and possibly the Federally unrecognized bands of "Shawnee" in Ohio and Indiana seem to be obvious frauds created for financial gain of their members and/or leadership. Others, like the Tennessee "Cherokee" groups seem to posess genuine (at least partial) descent, but their continuity as tribal groups is in severe question. Things seem to be even muddier with the likes of the "Lumbee" of North Carolina and the "Lenape" of New Jersey, Delaware, and Pennsylvania who have been recognised as Indian groups by Federally recognised tribes but whose Federal or even state recognition is in limbo.

Of course we also have things in the Shadowrun continuity like the "Re-Education Centers" [cough]Death Camps of Kansas and Texas, and after the NAN were formed, "Pinkskin" groups like the Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, and Children of God enclaves in the PPC, as well as metatype "tribes" like the Sisinreach and Cascade Ork.

By all means, discuss. Or, if there's already a still open thread in this forum, please link to it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sabs
post Aug 20 2010, 01:47 PM
Post #2


Prime Runner
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,996
Joined: 1-June 10
Member No.: 18,649



I suspect that the NAN uses Shamanistic magic to ask the Spirits for the heritage of a claimant tribe.
The Treaty that UCAS and CAS come to with the NAN probably has a list of recognized nations and lands.
Really, if a group of "Native Americans" tried to claim NAN membership and bring in more UCAS territory noone would go for it. The NAN isn't going to try and recover Georgia, for example.

We've never seen the actual wording of the Treaty forming the NAN, so we can only speculate.
But I imagine it only recognizes as Nations those groups that formed said Nations, and lays down their territorial rights.
For example, all those little reservations in NY State are not still there. They're not part of the NAN.
It's actually one of the biggest beefs I have with the whole NAN concept. Where the hell is the Iroquois Nation.

You could have a new group claiming heritage all the way back to the Hikuwapees of Central Ohio, and UCAS would still tell you to go blow, and NAN would probably not care about you either, unless the Great Spirits started making threats about removing their protection from the People, if this group wasn't incorporated. Even then, they'd probably be asked to relocate to NAN territory.



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Voran
post Aug 20 2010, 01:50 PM
Post #3


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,401
Joined: 23-February 04
From: Honolulu, HI
Member No.: 6,099



Yeah, the ability of the NAN to take over such an extensive space with limited populations probably resulted in more 'diluted' tribal organizations than before, just to hold the territory. A quick wiki check seems to indicate the current native american population makes up under 2 percent of the population of the United States. Granted, magical reawakening probably helped but can even spirits tell 'oh you're one tribe, he's another'? My thought is that the tribes were pragmatic about it, trying to keep tradition as best as they could, but also absorbing in those with suitable power, connections and appropriate mindset. I would also say that magic is probably one of the primary factors that helped establish a certain 'tribe'.

It gets a little murkier now in SR when you can modify your genetic code to read as 'native american' DNA.

In an overall sense, I kinda like to look at it like the Minbari of Babylon 5. Minbari souls being born in humans, etc etc. In the Shadowrun setting, there may be a blood component, but what determines your tribe is what your soul 'tells you is true'. Thus you could get blood of tribe A claiming soul of tribe X being welcomed in either, but likely going to X because that's where it feels right.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CanRay
post Aug 20 2010, 02:23 PM
Post #4


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,358
Joined: 2-December 07
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Member No.: 14,465



From my understanding, if you could prove you had even a smidgen of Native American blood in you, you could cliam to be part of that "Tribe".

It kept you from being kicked out of your home, for one thing... And helped prevent the "Brain Drain" that happened when they kicked out the, um, everyone else.

I mean, even Mel Brooks wasn't that racist! "We'll take the Chinks and the Niggers, but we won't take the Irish!" - Blazing Saddles
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MK Ultra
post Aug 20 2010, 02:30 PM
Post #5


Running Target
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,128
Joined: 9-December 06
From: In Your Mind
Member No.: 10,324



SoNA and the older NAN-Books provide some information that helps elucidate the guidelines. The Sioux-Nation took the majority of tribes, whose historical teritories fell into UCAS after the treaty. This is a major political issue in the NAN. It also (together with the Ute Nation, which now belongs to the PCC) held most of the Anglo-Reservations in the NAN, where Anglos (which is how all non-natives, regardless of herritage and ethnicity are termed by the NAN) that didnt want to leave after the Treaty live. So tribes that didnt get back their territory where relocated into other NAN territory (Quebeck by the way pretty much made a special deal with the natives on their territory, so they didnt join the NAN and stayed in Reservations in Quebeque instead).
What is a native-american varies from nation to nation IIRC, but most base it on specific genetic markers and/or documented prove of native-american herritage. Again how strict they are may depend on the nation. I.e. 'half- or thin-bloods' experiance a lot of prejudice in some (Sioux & Ute, IIRC), while others only ask for the presence of one out of several genetic markers (SSC).
Now the PCC (and Aztlan which was also a NAN member in the beginning) also recognized latinos as 'natives' eligible for NAN-citizenship. Some others did the same with all metas (Salish being the foremost but not only one). Then there was also 'pink-skin tribes' of non-natives that wanted to join and where allowed to. This makes it very probable, that tribal communities that where previously unrecognized, still made it into the NAN - though they may have been relocated.
I am not sure if the Treaty allowed to also keep some reservations on UCAS (and by extension CAS) soil, or if all had to relocate. But Quebeck definitly still has them and those are independant from the NAN.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CanRay
post Aug 20 2010, 02:44 PM
Post #6


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,358
Joined: 2-December 07
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Member No.: 14,465



Actually, another thing I think I remembered was something about "Pinkskin Reservations", where some of the Western European Peoples were placed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Doc Chase
post Aug 20 2010, 02:48 PM
Post #7


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,179
Joined: 10-June 10
From: St. Louis, UCAS/CAS Border
Member No.: 18,688



QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 20 2010, 02:44 PM) *
Actually, another thing I think I remembered was something about "Pinkskin Reservations", where some of the Western European Peoples were placed.


As I recall, the Pinkskin Reservations were what made the PCC so formidable, and the lack thereof is why the Ute went downhill since the Treaty. Pueblo kept a lot of its talent, and the Ute's 'brain drain' killed its economy.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kalvan
post Aug 20 2010, 02:54 PM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 174
Joined: 21-May 06
Member No.: 8,583



QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 20 2010, 09:48 AM) *
As I recall, the Pinkskin Reservations were what made the PCC so formidable, and the lack thereof is why the Ute went downhill since the Treaty. Pueblo kept a lot of its talent, and the Ute's 'brain drain' killed its economy.


Except that Vegas and Salt Lake City were in the Ute Nation.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Doc Chase
post Aug 20 2010, 02:56 PM
Post #9


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,179
Joined: 10-June 10
From: St. Louis, UCAS/CAS Border
Member No.: 18,688



QUOTE (Kalvan @ Aug 20 2010, 03:54 PM) *
Except that Vegas and Salt Lake City were in the Ute Nation.


I'm sorry - did you just say Vegas was a center of industry?

Vegas can't carry the state its in, let alone the greater Ute nation, SLC notwithstanding. Pueblo was a lot nicer to its Anglos than the Ute ever were.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LurkerOutThere
post Aug 20 2010, 03:00 PM
Post #10


Runner
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,946
Joined: 1-June 09
From: Omaha
Member No.: 17,234



To the OP: Could you restate your question or concern? I'm having trouble following.

THe NAN formation and continued existance doesn't hold up to any kind of close scrutiny, but it can be presumed that if it somehow worked, and there wern't a lot more natives in the SR universe then there are in our own then they would have needed to keep a signifigant number of non NA peoples in place. Now while it is very convenient as a political tool to make them non voting non influencing members there are some very distinct concerns aobut sustainability.

Basically I'm presuming that a signifigant number of tribes formed and were recognized with the primary criteria of A) Being able to do magic B) Being able to fight and contribute.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
suoq
post Aug 20 2010, 03:42 PM
Post #11


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,272
Joined: 22-June 10
From: Omaha. NE
Member No.: 18,746



Some outside of Canon options:
1) It's just a change in government, with only minor changes in population.
2) They threatened to blow up the Yellowstone Caldera, nuking the world and (handwave) it worked. Now the fear of the caldera has everyone else making an effort to keeping the NAN government secure.
3) They found a way to invite all those people with any Native American ancestry to the NAN. (Yay, magical DNA checks.) This allows for a lot of people who didn't know or couldn't prove their ancestry to suddenly "become" Native Americans.
4) They allowed anyone to re-form as members of their original native tribe*, even if the tribe was not Native American. This has resulted in a massive racial shift out of the area that now makes up the C.A.S. It also lets you put bands of gypsies in the NAN, and really, the NAN needs gypsies.

Silliness:
1) Las Vegas is now the world's largest Indian casino.
2) Don't forget the Azzies hold Roswell. If you're running NAN adventures, that's a fun reason to cross the border.
3) "The Pawnee have returned" - Mr. Burns. Feel free to use the Pawnee Morning Star Ritual as an adventure hook.


* Pick any tribe one of your ancestors was a member of.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CanadianWolverin...
post Aug 20 2010, 04:21 PM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 574
Joined: 22-June 09
From: Ucluelet - Tofino - Nanaimo Salish-Sahide Council
Member No.: 17,309



If I understand the OP correctly, I think the potential for groups of just about any tradition in a fictional place they are not accepted just a possible hook for a shadowrun involving that group - or in this case tribe - being used as a underground society that wants something that is very improbable for them to have through officially sanctioned channels so they have to go to the shadows for solutions. It is also possible that groups not recognized in the Treaty of Denver could have ties to them having not been involved in the conflict. Who knows, maybe not being recognized by government officials saved those "tribes" from a trip to a internment / death camp or maybe even there were certain tribal nations that didn't survive the conflict to make it to Treaty. Its all fiction and I say homebrew that to your heart's content a vast majority of the time.

Though, I think it should be noted that in IRL when a particular outcome, such as recognizing the legitimacy of a tribe of people, runs counter to a government's goals, the wheels of bureaucracy tend to grind along even slower than usual if at all, so a tribe not being recognized by a state or federally doesn't necessarily mean they are not a tribe. The past is littered with unwitting and purposeful ignorance in order to justify a particular outcome.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LurkerOutThere
post Aug 20 2010, 04:56 PM
Post #13


Runner
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,946
Joined: 1-June 09
From: Omaha
Member No.: 17,234



Or it could be *GASP* that the powers that be in the NAN might disrcriminate against smaller/lesser tribes once the dust settles. How could this be, their all magic indian blood brothers?!

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TBRMInsanity
post Aug 20 2010, 05:03 PM
Post #14


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,002
Joined: 22-April 06
From: Canada
Member No.: 8,494



QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 20 2010, 10:56 AM) *
Or it could be *GASP* that the powers that be in the NAN might disrcriminate against smaller/lesser tribes once the dust settles. How could this be, their all magic indian blood brothers?!


*cough* Algonkian-Manitou Council *cough*
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Megu
post Aug 20 2010, 05:33 PM
Post #15


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 411
Joined: 10-June 09
From: Minneapolis, MN
Member No.: 17,268



I mean, in my games I've usually tried to paint a picture of a NAN that, while culturally strongly Native and a bit weighted towards putting ethnic Natives in positions of power, isn't necessarily ethnically homogeneous. So I imagine, given that, that there's a possibility some of these groups have survived and been recognized. The SAIM rebellion needed to bolster its numbers badly enough that I doubt they'd have kicked them out of the treehouse, especially since they were clearly on board with creating and being involved in one or more Native-rooted nation-states. That said, the pressures of the Ghost Dance War and the camps would probably weed out anybody whose heart wasn't in it. We do know metahuman tribes were formed after the war, so there's also a precedent for "new" tribes.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TBRMInsanity
post Aug 20 2010, 06:59 PM
Post #16


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,002
Joined: 22-April 06
From: Canada
Member No.: 8,494



QUOTE (Megu @ Aug 20 2010, 11:33 AM) *
I mean, in my games I've usually tried to paint a picture of a NAN that, while culturally strongly Native and a bit weighted towards putting ethnic Natives in positions of power, isn't necessarily ethnically homogeneous. So I imagine, given that, that there's a possibility some of these groups have survived and been recognized. The SAIM rebellion needed to bolster its numbers badly enough that I doubt they'd have kicked them out of the treehouse, especially since they were clearly on board with creating and being involved in one or more Native-rooted nation-states. That said, the pressures of the Ghost Dance War and the camps would probably weed out anybody whose heart wasn't in it. We do know metahuman tribes were formed after the war, so there's also a precedent for "new" tribes.


They really didn't need a precedent, now did they. If an individual was willing to adopt and follow the NAN society and forsake the "evil white man" then they were welcomed with semi-open arms. The NAN needed to increase their population quickly, otherwise the UCAS and CAS would have eventually found a way to counter magic and the second Ghost Dance War would have gone quite differently (aka NAN bloodbath).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Inpu
post Aug 20 2010, 07:11 PM
Post #17


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 254
Joined: 9-July 10
From: Zeist, NL
Member No.: 18,807



This isn't true for all tribes, but Muscogee and Cherokee culture has an adopt mentality, where a person close enough to the family becomes family. Further, the idea of blood ties and percentages is a distinctly "white-eyes" tradition. While a large number of Native Americans take pride in how Native they are in the modern age, that is the typical blend of cultures that occurs over time. It was far less important how much blood you had for one tribe or another.

Basically, if anyone fought on the side of the NAN, they would likely be brought in. With magic, certain individuals would find it even easier. Assuming the NAN are returning to traditional roots, of course. If, instead, they decide to be racist about the matter (which it very much looks like based off of the material) then it will be more tribe and law based.

Also, since they count as nations, Natives would likely be accorded special rights. What I would like to know is if specific tribes get better treatment than others: there are some very strong tribal divides.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mooncrow
post Aug 20 2010, 07:12 PM
Post #18


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 516
Joined: 22-July 10
From: Detroit
Member No.: 18,843



QUOTE (Megu @ Aug 20 2010, 12:33 PM) *
I mean, in my games I've usually tried to paint a picture of a NAN that, while culturally strongly Native and a bit weighted towards putting ethnic Natives in positions of power, isn't necessarily ethnically homogeneous. So I imagine, given that, that there's a possibility some of these groups have survived and been recognized. The SAIM rebellion needed to bolster its numbers badly enough that I doubt they'd have kicked them out of the treehouse, especially since they were clearly on board with creating and being involved in one or more Native-rooted nation-states. That said, the pressures of the Ghost Dance War and the camps would probably weed out anybody whose heart wasn't in it. We do know metahuman tribes were formed after the war, so there's also a precedent for "new" tribes.


This is exactly how the NAN is in my games.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Megu
post Aug 20 2010, 07:26 PM
Post #19


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 411
Joined: 10-June 09
From: Minneapolis, MN
Member No.: 17,268



QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 20 2010, 01:12 PM) *
This is exactly how the NAN is in my games.


Yeah, I actually kind of wonder sometimes if, when in the shadowchats they use terms like Native and Anglo, if those aren't more cultural designators at this point than ethnic ones, much the way today we have Hispanic-ness as separate from race in the census, if that makes any sense.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mooncrow
post Aug 20 2010, 07:41 PM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 516
Joined: 22-July 10
From: Detroit
Member No.: 18,843



QUOTE (Megu @ Aug 20 2010, 02:26 PM) *
Yeah, I actually kind of wonder sometimes if, when in the shadowchats they use terms like Native and Anglo, if those aren't more cultural designators at this point than ethnic ones, much the way today we have Hispanic-ness as separate from race in the census, if that makes any sense.


I think it's about the only way to look at it that makes any sense. My group does a lot of running for and in the NAN states, so I've had to detail them out pretty thoroughly. Given the numbers, and as Inpu noted, the already "flexible" sense of tribe that many (not all, but more than a few tribes had ways of adding newcomers, and after that, they were real members) had, it just made sense that really anyone that wanted to could join in the beginning.

Especially as the nations were first forming, and old tribal rites of passage, etc were being revived, certainly there were many "pure-blooded" NA who needed to learn the new culture, it seems easy enough to add other races in to that. I'm sure they would face certain amounts of discrimination in some places, but who doesn't in SR? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Grue Master
post Aug 20 2010, 09:28 PM
Post #21


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 155
Joined: 7-July 10
Member No.: 18,799



Another thing I throw into the mix is that Hispanics can claim some degree of Native American origin. Before the SR timeline split off from ours, there was large influx of Mexicans and other Central/Southern American people to the US. If they were suitably settled when the whole NAN thing happens they might find a way to stay. This is especially true if they're not part of/into that whole Aztlan/Amazonia thing.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tzeentch
post Aug 20 2010, 10:02 PM
Post #22


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 746
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 459



For various reasons, mostly dealing with cultural preservation and entitlement programs, the concept of blood quantum is VERY VERY IMPORTANT to most tribes right now. Some tribes are on the edge of being delisted because they don't have enough blooded members to meet government criteria as a recognized tribe.

It was always my opinion that the Shadowrun universe diverged a long ago, and there were significantly more tribals around in the 1990s to begin with. That said, even with the major rejiggering of baseline NAN populations in SoNA you will probably end up with a cerebral hemmorage if you think too deeply about tribal demographics in Shadowrun -- they don't make a lot of sense, have NEVER made a lot of sense, and it has not really mattered (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Look at the Hawai'i situation for a chuckle.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mooncrow
post Aug 20 2010, 10:04 PM
Post #23


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 516
Joined: 22-July 10
From: Detroit
Member No.: 18,843



QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Aug 20 2010, 05:02 PM) *
For various reasons, mostly dealing with cultural preservation and entitlement programs, the concept of blood quantum is VERY VERY IMPORTANT to most tribes right now. Some tribes are on the edge of being delisted because they don't have enough blooded members to meet government criteria as a recognized tribe.

It was always my opinion that the Shadowrun universe diverged a long ago, and there were significantly more tribals around in the 1990s to begin with. That said, even with the major rejiggering of baseline NAN populations in SoNA you will probably end up with a cerebral hemmorage if you think too deeply about tribal demographics in Shadowrun -- they don't make a lot of sense, have NEVER made a lot of sense, and it has not really mattered (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Look at the Hawai'i situation for a chuckle.


While you're right; talking in universe for another moment - those type of concerns are likely to vanish the moment the government starts rounding up tribes and putting them in concentration camps.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CanadianWolverin...
post Aug 20 2010, 10:18 PM
Post #24


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 574
Joined: 22-June 09
From: Ucluelet - Tofino - Nanaimo Salish-Sahide Council
Member No.: 17,309



QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 20 2010, 09:56 AM) *
Or it could be *GASP* that the powers that be in the NAN might disrcriminate against smaller/lesser tribes once the dust settles. How could this be, their all magic indian blood brothers?!


You know, if it weren't for the gasp and asinine question at the end, I might actually find your post civil in addition to be a possibility I agree with. Sure, there should be conflict within and among NAN member states and what nation doesn't have some form/degree of social or political outcast within their borders?

When I made my previous reply, I noticed that some of the tribes, fake or otherwise, mentioned in OP and others had their former pre-colonial nations in the regions where the CAS and UCAS are, so hopefully you can see how your point may have little merit when it comes to the CAS and UCAS. If you want to discuss possible rivalries within and amongst the NAN member states I am all ears even to the point of dissolving the NAN and Sovereign Tribal Council as a singular North American geo-political block (especially since I consider the NAN member states on a case by case basis anyways), though not sure if that stays on topic or not.

But if you are just getting on your grind stone with that chip on your shoulder which is what seems to make NAN controversial in the first place with statements like "THe NAN formation and continued existance doesn't hold up to any kind of close scrutiny" which I've seen via the NAN Fading and NANer threads before, could we just agree to disagree because god forbid we have any competent, average, and incompetent north american first nation characters/groups/tribes/nations in our fiction, a fiction that doesn't seem to have problems with other IRL census data getting in the way of its magical nature and future tech industries leading to a broken world as well.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Voran
post Aug 21 2010, 12:18 AM
Post #25


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,401
Joined: 23-February 04
From: Honolulu, HI
Member No.: 6,099



QUOTE (CanadianWolverine @ Aug 20 2010, 06:18 PM) *
You know, if it weren't for the gasp and asinine question at the end, I might actually find your post civil in addition to be a possibility I agree with. Sure, there should be conflict within and among NAN member states and what nation doesn't have some form/degree of social or political outcast within their borders?

When I made my previous reply, I noticed that some of the tribes, fake or otherwise, mentioned in OP and others had their former pre-colonial nations in the regions where the CAS and UCAS are, so hopefully you can see how your point may have little merit when it comes to the CAS and UCAS. If you want to discuss possible rivalries within and amongst the NAN member states I am all ears even to the point of dissolving the NAN and Sovereign Tribal Council as a singular North American geo-political block (especially since I consider the NAN member states on a case by case basis anyways), though not sure if that stays on topic or not.

But if you are just getting on your grind stone with that chip on your shoulder which is what seems to make NAN controversial in the first place with statements like "THe NAN formation and continued existance doesn't hold up to any kind of close scrutiny" which I've seen via the NAN Fading and NANer threads before, could we just agree to disagree because god forbid we have any competent, average, and incompetent north american first nation characters/groups/tribes/nations in our fiction, a fiction that doesn't seem to have problems with other IRL census data getting in the way of its magical nature and future tech industries leading to a broken world as well.



And crosslinking to previous posts like that doesn't show a chip on your shoulders? We were doing fine without bringing in older things you disagree about.

As noted the Hawaii situation doesn't make much sense either, but we roll with it. There aren't really that many of us Native Hawaiian's to start with much less rule/control a 4million+ population (as of Paradise Lost, though I suspect its probably still around that many in 2070s). Still per SR, through dealings with megacorps and the yakuza, plus having its own shaman/magical support, and a couple THOR SHOT warning shots, Hawaii was able to fend off the already skittish UCAS that was dealing with the rest of the NAN-type troubles back home.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th March 2024 - 04:04 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.