Adepts initiating, question Options

[TranKirsaKali]

Bull your read on adepts is very different then mine. They start out as good or better then their street sam counterparts and have no upward ceiling. They don't have to worry about availability ratings on their starting powers so in a focused area they will generally be very strong. And then there's what a pornomancer can do. *shudder*

LOL just you wait till next Gen Con Lurker. . .

I will make you shudder. . . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Bull]

Bull your read on adepts is very different then mine. They start out as good or better then their street sam counterparts and have no upward ceiling. They don't have to worry about availability ratings on their starting powers so in a focused area they will generally be very strong. And then there's what a pornomancer can do. *shudder*

Pound for Pound, I'm better making a cyber/bio Sammy than I am an Adept. The Adept might be able to eek out a couple extra points in one area, but he'll be sacrificing in others. All around, an Adept can start with better all around abilities.

And this is how it should be. Coming up with 2nd and 3rd ed Adepts, they always started a little behind the Sammy. But in the long run, they could surpass them.

Unfortunately, these days that's no longer really the case. Adepts power points stayed the same from 3rd edition (Except for Reflexes, which got bumped down a little in SR4A), but they usually start with fewer points (That 6th point of magic at chargen is hard to justify). They no longer have the option to just buy power points like they did in 3rd. They no longer automatically get a Magic point when they initiate. So you're looking at 40+ karma for your first point of magic, and 1 more lousy adept power point (Which rarely gets you that far). Meanwhile, the Sammy is either investing in skills or bumping up a stat or two that was low because it was secondary, like Willpower. PLus he's earning money, to buy more Cyberware. Fragging dirt cheap Cyber and Bio (I still have issues when Wired Reflexes cost less than a car).

Yes, in the LONG run, Adepts can be better. But until you're hitting hundreds and hundreds of karma? No, they're really not. Not if you're competing with a Sammy.

Now, if you want your adept to be a one trick pony, then yes, they can get ridiculous numbers at chargen. But they're only going to be really good at that one thing.

Adepts, IMO, are generally only worth playing if you're doing something that is tough to replicate with Cyber. Some of the unusual Adept powers, which are usually over-priced and not nearly as useful as they could be (Water running, wall running, jumping). These days, Face stuff, to a degree. But again, you're specializing, and in this case you're specializing in an area that may not be useful all the time.

Adepts are, as I said, don't work as well as they should. They;'re not horrible, but if you're going with an Adept combat character (WHich is traditionally what Adepts are supposed to be), you're often going to be lagging behind for a long, long time.

Bull

[pbangarth]

Adepts are, as I said, don't work as well as they should. They;'re not horrible, but if you're going with an Adept combat character (WHich is traditionally what Adepts are supposed to be), you're often going to be lagging behind for a long, long time.

The 'traditional' view of adepts you mention is a strong one, coming from many corners of our folklore, but there really is a lot more that can be done, more useful things that can be done, with adept powers that rarely get mentioned.

As one example, there are a whole lot of abilities and metamagics that can be directed into an investigator type character... magically augmenting Skills and Attributes relatively inexpensively. Whether such a character would fly in a Missions environment is up to the player and the writers.

Technology may have caught up to Bruce Lee, but Sherlock Holmes is still untouchable.

[DWC]

I don't think anyone is disputing that when adepts compete with mundanes in things other than combat, adepts clean house. As investigators, hackers, riggers, faces, and infiltrators, they're almost without peer.

I'd say the problem lies in trying to shoehorn them into being combatants. With a lot of money spent on the right 1.0 essence worth of bioware, they can be good but they pay an arm and a leg in cash and karma to get there. Meanwhile, the mundane shooter they're finally as good as has learned to hack, fly a helicopter and a suborbital, and has seduced the adept's girlfriend, little sister, and mother.

[Bull]

Oh, I agree. I'm mostly just counterpointing Lurker's comments above, as he specifically was talking about Adepts vs Samurai. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

[SaintHax]

Bull your read on adepts is very different then mine. They start out as good or better then their street sam counterparts and have no upward ceiling. They don't have to worry about availability ratings on their starting powers so in a focused area they will generally be very strong. And then there's what a pornomancer can do. *shudder*

I don't understand how you say they don't have a ceiling? They have one: and it's low. This is why the sam is better; the sam doesn't have to pay (6*5) 30 karma to get his next bump in power. Nor will he have to pay (13 + 35) 48 karma for the bump after that. Instead, they could have spent those 78 karma increasing skills (or two attributes to 6 and have 18 karma left to play with) and spend their nuyen on extra gear/ware. By the time I had 78 career karma with this character I had earned around 200k in nuyen.

Some notes:
1) the sam will get to the point where they will be less economical and need to rip out old ware, and replace it with a more expensive better grade to make room for more stuff. However, this should be the time the adept is looking at getting a magic rating 8: which is 56 karma the same get's to use to bump more attributes and skills.

2) the adept can install a point or two of cyber+bio and be very effective, but this will cause him/her to lose powers in trade.

3) As for the ceiling, to get to magic 8 you'll need to spend another (16+40) 56 karma... or a total of 134 career karma just on magic and initation if you started with magic 5.

4) For math hammers, initiation and ordeals weren't factored in b/c they are about a wash since you need to spend +5 karma to join; +5 karma to learn arcana, and it only saves you 6 karma for the first two initations.

[TranKirsaKali]

4) For math hammers, initiation and ordeals weren't factored in b/c they are about a wash since you need to spend +5 karma to join; +5 karma to learn arcana, and it only saves you 6 karma for the first two initations.

However, in missions you can end up doing runs that will count as an ordeal for initiation. I know we did in one of the CMP's. I think It was 5 but I am not sure right now. So ordeals can be "free".

[SaintHax]

However, in missions you can end up doing runs that will count as an ordeal for initiation. I know we did in one of the CMP's. I think It was 5 but I am not sure right now. So ordeals can be "free".

Ordeals are always free, but the initiation costs karma, joining the group costs karma, and learning Arcana costs BP or karma. THat mission gave you access to an Ordeal you normally couldn't do in SRM. Very handy.