 Chemical/genetic questions |
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 Mar 5 2004, 09:59 PM
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#26
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 17-December 03 From: CAS, Houston Member No.: 5,913  |
Thrombin.
Its the platelets and Thrombin factor cascade in the plasma that causes blood to clot. I think that a chemical agent that relies on blood pressure (bloodstream flow) would be a lot more difficult to design than one that one thats just temperature dependent. But this since this is all theoretical I guess its possible. BTW, nasty idea about the Ghouls... |
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Mar 5 2004, 11:23 PM
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#27
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Might manage it with a reaction to a chemical not normally in the blood-stream yet found in the atmosphere of a sprawl. Like common cleaning solutions, or carbon monoxide.
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Mar 6 2004, 12:48 AM
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#28
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 17-December 03 From: CAS, Houston Member No.: 5,913 |
I think if its in the atmosphere, its in your bloodstream unless your wearing a filter or using an air tank.
The other problem is that a compound in the plasma designed to break down nucleic acids once it leaves the body covers a runner's spilled blood, but a stray hair left behind could still be used to id him. It all depends on how thorough a search is conducted and how badly the opposition wants to nail the runner. |
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Mar 6 2004, 01:03 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 675 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 2,034 |
Yea, any of these things should operate as a t# modifier for the attempt to gather a sample, not as an automatic success, if your game goes heavy into stuff like that anyway.
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Mar 6 2004, 12:52 PM
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#30
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Since white blood cells are the only parts of your blood with DNA, you could take out the nymph nodes (there are only like a dozen of them, iirc), and replace them with ones that make white blood cells without DNA. Then you don't have to worry about all this craziness about things breaking down under certain conditions.
I was under the impression that hair didn't have DNA, although dandruff would, and 90% of the time saliva and sweat would as well. |
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Mar 6 2004, 01:20 PM
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#31
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Just use the Sterilise spell and clean up the astral afterwards.
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Mar 6 2004, 03:19 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 313 Joined: 5-March 04 From: UK Member No.: 6,125 |
Just what I was thinking. Though it depends on the Johnson. A chemical that just eats all the DNA might work to leave no witnesses. (not even the runners) From memory (theoretical/cryptozoological biochemistry; don't ask) you would not die immediately. Anyone got a timescale for death from DNA deletion? It would be slow, I think. A few days maybe, very painful toward the end. Maybe the Johnson could use it to ensure compliance. "We can remove the agent and restore your DNA, just as long as you complete one more run..." |
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Mar 7 2004, 11:48 PM
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#33
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
Perhaps I can be of some service. I do genetic research (mostly on viruses) at a major university in the U.S. I am also getting ready to attend medical school. The chemical signal that usually activates the platelet clotting cascade is actually called tissue plasminogen activator (TPA). It is released from endothelial cells (those that line blood vessels) when the cells are damaged and blood starts spilling out of the body. Your best bet would be a synthetic DNAse or RNAse enzyme that activates at room temperature (all enzymes are thermosensative) in the presence of TPA. In the laboratory we routinely use synthetic agents to reduce DNA and RNA contamination (even one copy of a viral genome can create false positives on PCR-based genetic tests). We use a product called RNAse AWAY that destroys genetic material in very short order. Here is a link to a technical report, if you are interested. Technical Report If you do a Google search for RNAse AWAY you'll find more info that you would care to read... Hope that helps. If I can answer any other questions you might have, let me know. Method |
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Mar 8 2004, 04:40 AM
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#34
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
My god, you get all sorts on this forum. :grinbig:
-Siege |
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Mar 8 2004, 03:43 PM
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#35
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
What can I say? I was a nerdy gamer long before I became a research scientist. 8) |
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Mar 8 2004, 03:49 PM
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#36
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 17-December 03 From: CAS, Houston Member No.: 5,913 |
Ditto.
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Mar 8 2004, 04:09 PM
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#37
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 18-January 04 Member No.: 5,988 |
Hey what particular fields are you guys involved with?
Also for the activate outside the body deal how does this sound: Perhaps you could design a cold agglutinin(antibody that becomes activate at temperatures below human body temp) that targets DNA or maybe just WBC's. Only problem I see is it wouldn't work exept at temperatures between the temps of 0°C to 20°C, of course bioengineering may progressed to the point where you can alter the temperature range at which the antibodies activate by 2064. This could be especial effective if you gave it a half life of only a few hours and could inject it. Before a run you dose yourself up, and for the next X hours, no DNA from blood. Still thinking up ways to deal with DNA in other tissues... Edited: missing a key except in there oops... |
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Mar 8 2004, 05:43 PM
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#38
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 17-December 03 From: CAS, Houston Member No.: 5,913 |
Cerebrovascular Sciences. What about you? I like Method's suggestion. I figured it could be a protease linked to the cascade, but I was thinking it would be to dangerous to have it recirculated back into the blood stream. Having it both temp and TPA linked would solve it, kudos Method. BTW in going to suggest using RNase AWAY for our next PCR runs. Who says you can't use stuff from dumpshock :) I don't have the SOTA sourcebook so I'm still in the dark about the level of genetic sequencing in 2064 (I guess the runners could shave completely to reduce follicle DNA). I don't know if it would be easier to use a protease or an antibody; the antibody sounds great, but it'd be difficult to tailor make for each runner. Besides, even if RNase AWAY isn't a carcinogen, unless the johnson assures me that his new DNA-Be-Gone drug comes from a delta lab, there's no way in hell I'm injecting it. :D |
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Mar 8 2004, 05:47 PM
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#39
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
I have undergraduate degrees in biology, zoology/physiology, and medical microbiology and a master’s degree in pathobiology (with a focus in virology). I do research in infectious disease. It’s an interesting idea, but I don’t think it would work. Antibodies are a means to an end. They don't actually destroy whatever they attach to (although they can neutralize toxins). In actuality they "mark" an antigen so that specific WBCs can recognize it as foreign and destroy it. Outside the body WBCs would die quickly, so an activated Ab would be useless. An Ab specific to WBCs would also be a moot point for obvious reasons (you’d be targeting the very thing you need to destroy the DNA). |
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Mar 8 2004, 05:53 PM
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#40
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
Now when you get caught reading the forums at work you can tell your boss you're discussing projects with other researchers and you wouldn't be lying. :evil: |
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Mar 8 2004, 07:40 PM
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#41
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 17-December 03 From: CAS, Houston Member No.: 5,913 |
That's dumpshock MED forum, thank you very much. :D
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Mar 8 2004, 08:37 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 693 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,335 |
I've always been a fan of the BottleO'Bleach on runs. It has so many uses.
Not as many as a clipboard, or duct tape, but it's still useful. I've had a couple characters who lived by the KISS rule. They were pretty succesful. |
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Mar 8 2004, 11:47 PM
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#43
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
I gotta change my underwear. You have no idea how long it's been since I've seen anyone who's a gamer who even know what PCR was... |
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Mar 9 2004, 04:11 AM
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#44
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 18-January 04 Member No.: 5,988 |
Yeah, not a subject I expected to see while checking the computer on break. I'm starting my first year of Internal Medicine Residence in July, and am currently working towards an Infectious Disease Fellowship.
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Mar 9 2004, 05:07 AM
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#45
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
It makes sense to me. I think SR appeals to scientifically/technically minded people. Kalibar: where do you find the time to play SR!?! Seriously though, do you know what your fellowship in infectious disease might entail? If its a research-based fellowship I'd love to hear what you are working on... of coarse the internet might not be the best "forum" for such discussions, what with all the new bio-terrorism concerns... |
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Mar 9 2004, 01:23 PM
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#46
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 18-January 04 Member No.: 5,988 |
Well, I'm playing on weekends I don't have call right now.(And the occassional weekday session if the schedule allows it.) Unfortunately there are going to be a lot fewer of them starting in July. My one group of PC's will be scattered to other hospitals across America, and the others will be 8 hours away. :(
I actually met more people who play Shadowrun in med school than in College. We had a group who tried to play at least once a week. It was a great break from studying. The fellowship won't start for another 3 years. But I'll be doing research blocks in the ID department throughout residency. Nothing sensitive to bioterrorism, mostly dealing with our good friend MRSA and some work on ESBL's... Back on topic: I realize antibodies are a tagging system, but it should agglutinate the DNA... Can that still be used in PCR? How about for ritual sorcery? Also do they mention how DNA fingerprinting is even done in Shadowrun(as oppose to how it's done now)? |
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Mar 9 2004, 01:29 PM
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#47
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
There hasn't been a SR canon reference on forensics information, never mind the detail for which you're asking.
And what part of the blood constitutes the ritual sample? You're kidding, right? Remember, think abstract. :grinbig: -Siege |
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Mar 9 2004, 03:10 PM
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#48
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 18-January 04 Member No.: 5,988 |
Well, according to MITS, p37. The tissue must contain the targets DNA for it to be a material link.
As was mentioned previously the WBC's are the only part of blood with DNA(ignoring the endothelial cells or other cells from surrounding tissue which aren't technically part of the blood but could be found in some minute quantity in a blood stain or sample), that would mean you need WBC's in the blood for it to be a material link. |
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Mar 9 2004, 03:39 PM
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#49
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 17-December 03 From: CAS, Houston Member No.: 5,913 |
Speaking other than blood, would mitochondrial DNA be sufficient for a link. I read that some forensic labs, even comercial ones such as Reliagene Tech, can extract a sequence from a hair shaft even without a follicle root. These are the same labs that can sequence the code of human remains several hundred years old. Following that though, would it be possible for a ritual link to be established on a long dead corpse and bind that beings astral spirit? or am I just smoking crack? |
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Mar 9 2004, 03:59 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 546 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Manchester, England Member No.: 1,062 |
IIRC Ritual links are only good for 24 hours after they were left, regardless of any other factor with the sole exception of having a preserve spell cast on them. Here's what the FAQ has on the matter:
This post has been edited by Darkest Angel: Mar 9 2004, 04:02 PM |
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