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Voran
2 Things I'd like the community to help me with.

1. As I don't have either SOTA 2063 or Man/Machine (and until they start printing them again, it doesn't seem likely nyahnyah.gif) I was wondering if someone could give me an update of the Immunization genetic enhancement. If I'm reading the Shadowtech version right, does full spectrum immunization make you immune to any listed versions of poisons (cyanide, nacroject, etc?)? Would a character with full spectrum immunization be generally unaffected by doses of neurostun? What type of consequences would this have to 'good' chemical compounds such as various biotech patches or stuff they use during surgery?

2. I've been knocking around this idea for a chemical concoction and would appreciate community feedback.

After watching a hell of alot of CSI on tv, I notice that blood is frequently used to get DNA fingerprinting to catch the baddy. I'm thinking of adding a chemical to my gameworld that you could dose yourself with before a run, and if you get shot up and leave blood behind, the chemical would react with the standing blood and break it down in a way that would prevent DNA 'fingerprints'.

I'm operating on the premise that the chemical when introduced to a runner's system, wouldn't have any effect as long as the blood kept in motion. I don't have a medical background, so I'd appreciate any corrections, but its my thinking that blood in your body is always in motion. Only pools and stops moving when you croak, or it exits your body. So the chemical would remain inert in the body, only coming into effect when you get hit and leave blood splatters behind.

I was also thinking that this wouldn't be a chemical that would be good to have constantly running in your system. You're meant to dose it before that big corp-Lab run where you don't want to leave any evidence linking you behind. It would last in your system 48 hours or so before becoming ineffective. I'm also thinking you shouldn't dose yourself with it more than once every 2 or 3 weeks. I was looking at the side effects of oxygenated flurocarbons in Shadowtech, and kinda liked the idea of there being problems if you didn't let the previous dose fully breakdown.

As mentioned, any comments (constructive I hope, hehe) would be appreciated.
Siege
Neat idea in theory, but it would be difficult to create a drug that knows when it's no longer in your system.

And if environmental conditions change that makes the drug think it's outside your body while it's inside your body and starts to break down your DNA...well...um...ouch.

-Siege
Nath
Actually, SOTA:2063 pushed the total immunization through the door while flying at 10,000 feet. It is no longer available and the flovor text says it never was really total, only limited to a range of common intoxication. Some guy bought it and got negligent about hyegene, he caught some very exotic diseases and sued the company. As the result no corp dare to market a treatment as a full spectrum immunization.
Nikoli
As for the breaking down of blood, a far simpler thing is to have some spray cans with amonia. It'll render the blood useless.
Rev
I can think of a few ways to do it:

Nanobots.
Bad effect: really expensive.

An enzyme/chemical that functions only well below body temperature.
Bad effect: if you get real cold extremeties it starts working doing damage to you like a poison.

Carcerands full of dna, etc designed to contaminate the sample making it useless for testing. This would even work on blood they extracted from you by needle.
Bad effect: no (standard) dna test will work on you at all until they clear, so a positive t# modifier for medical healing / surgery tests beyond first aid.
Siege
QUOTE (Nikoli @ Mar 5 2004, 07:57 PM)
As for the breaking down of blood, a far simpler thing is to have some spray cans with amonia.  It'll render the blood useless.

Bleach.

-Siege

Edit: And since it seems so appropriate, "Martha Stewart Guilty on All Charges." grinbig.gif
Fahr
for chemical decomposition of blood once it leaves the body... I would think nanites would be good for this, or a chemical that reacted to UV light, after all, that is how they FIND the blood spatters to get the dna from (assuming you didn't just bleed all over the floor) plus if it is flourecent lighting, it would react too... only, don't go out and get a tan, it could be ummm... .detrimental to your health biggrin.gif

-Mike R.
Nikoli
Thanks for the catch Siege.
Siege
QUOTE (Fahr)
for chemical decomposition of blood once it leaves the body... I would think nanites would be good for this, or a chemical that reacted to UV light, after all, that is how they FIND the blood spatters to get the dna from (assuming you didn't just bleed all over the floor) plus if it is flourecent lighting, it would react too... only, don't go out and get a tan, it could be ummm... .detrimental to your health biggrin.gif

-Mike R.

Maybe it's just me, but I do not want nanites floating in my bloodstream with the express purpose of eating my DNA. grinbig.gif

Nik: De nada. One of my old crew used to keep a bottle of bleach in pressurized form just for such occasions. grinbig.gif

The job sites were usually cleaner after we left than before we came. grinbig.gif

-Siege
Nikoli
Of course the SSG has robotic drones whose only job is to run around cleaning. That could be useful.
Voran
Heh, granted the bleach idea is a real world/lowtech version that works, but it also depends on making sure you find each blood splotch. I'm trying to find a way do that on 'automatic' of sorts. I appreciate all the feedback so far. What's really tweaking my brain is finding a way to do it, without having that unfortunate side effect of eating your blood up...while its still inside your body nyahnyah.gif
Voran
On a side note, its interesting to me to see how my thoughts on running have changed ever since CSI came on the air. My first thought was "Jesus, I leave alot of tracks I didn't realize I was leaving". Since then I've added more care into my SR approach. I stop trying to find that perfectly tweaked gun, instead I find a nice general model that has decent add-ons, but one I won't mind ditching. Or if I do have to keep the same gun, tools to swap out or modify barrels so ballistics won't be able to match bullets I left in the walls (or guards!) back to any weapons I carry or store. My favorite toy-design I've come up with so far....


Intruder Shoes. Used as a 'one shot' effect. Basically boots with a memory-plastic type sole. You leave one set of tracks while you're in the building, just after you successfully ditch the zone and are sitting in the riggers extraction vehicle speeding away on your merry way, you hit the catalyst switch and your soles change back to the originally imprinted sole. Thus you will have a pair of boots that can never be linked back to that particular crime.
Nikoli
Too pricey, pair of boots froma 'flats' machine does the same trick, you then drop them off at another machine and they go on to some other poor schmuck.
Siege
QUOTE (Voran)
Heh, granted the bleach idea is a real world/lowtech version that works, but it also depends on making sure you find each blood splotch. I'm trying to find a way do that on 'automatic' of sorts. I appreciate all the feedback so far. What's really tweaking my brain is finding a way to do it, without having that unfortunate side effect of eating your blood up...while its still inside your body nyahnyah.gif

Well, an aerosol delivery system that sprays an area with bleach? Or a condensed, industrial-strength version of bleach?

-Siege
Voran
QUOTE (Siege)
QUOTE (Voran @ Mar 5 2004, 08:30 PM)
Heh, granted the bleach idea is a real world/lowtech version that works, but it also depends on making sure you find each blood splotch.  I'm trying to find a way do that on 'automatic' of sorts.  I appreciate all the feedback so far.  What's really tweaking my brain is finding a way to do it, without having that unfortunate side effect of eating your blood up...while its still inside your body nyahnyah.gif

Well, an aerosol delivery system that sprays an area with bleach? Or a condensed, industrial-strength version of bleach?

-Siege

Hmmm...a bleach type grenade perhaps? Kinda like a bug-bomb you smoke your house out with?
Nikoli
vegm.gif
Bleach grenade. I love it.
Buy them by the case, set them to the same frequency and position them along the walls as you make your way in, on the way out, bamn, insta-clean and anyone not wearing chem suits just got a chemical peel the hard way.
Voran
Its fun to start with an idea, and end up with a completely different idea, that ends up being way cooler. love.gif

Wouldn't be as effective in a street/outdoor environment but I've got a new idea how to end my break-ins at labs and such. Vandalism is an juicy bonus smile.gif
Nikoli
especially when it gives tha Man the Finger. Bleach does wonders for fancy wall paint and FAB enclosures too I'd imagine.
Neruda's Ghost
QUOTE (Rev)
An enzyme/chemical that functions only well below body temperature.
Bad effect: if you get real cold extremeties it starts working doing damage to you like a poison.


I think this could be viable. An temperature sensitive drug introduced into the plasma that is harmless above say 32 degrees celcius sounds ok. Possible side effects might lead to heart failure or stroke from prolonged use and the extreme cost of the drug could keep it out of general public hands.

Frostbite occurs only on the outside of the skin so I think that even in extremely cold temperatures only a mild burning sensation would be felt on the surface of the runners skin and this only to exposed extremities. A person would be dead anyway if their internal body temperature drops below a 32 degrees.

Incidently, if said shadowrunner dies along the run you might end up with an Obi-Wan death trick with only the guys equipment left behind. Nice plausible deniability for the Johnson smile.gif

Cool idea, Voran.
Nikoli
QUOTE (Neruda's Ghost)
QUOTE (Rev)
An enzyme/chemical that functions only well below body temperature.
Bad effect: if you get real cold extremeties it starts working doing damage to you like a poison.


I think this could be viable. An temperature sensitive drug introduced into the plasma that is harmless above say 32 degrees celcius sounds ok. Possible side effects might lead to heart failure or stroke from prolonged use and the extreme cost of the drug could keep it out of general public hands.

Frostbite occurs only on the outside of the skin so I think that even in extremely cold temperatures only a mild burning sensation would be felt on the surface of the runners skin and this only to exposed extremities. A person would be dead anyway if their internal body temperature drops below a 32 degrees.

Incidently, if said shadowrunner dies along the run you might end up with an Obi-Wan death trick with only the guys equipment left behind. Nice plausible deniability for the Johnson smile.gif

Cool idea, Voran.

Sounds more like something the Johnson might use without the runners knowledge.
"The bio-lab at the facility was comprimised. As luck would have it, we have a counteragent, and will admiister it to you beforehand."
Siege
For that matter, a cortex bomb with nanites or biological matter that just eats, melts or otherwise consumes organic matter.

-Siege
nezumi
How do plateletes know its not in your bloodstream any more? Obviously, there's something that triggers them, hook that up with your anti-DNA idea. That means they'll act up whenever you get a cut, but that isn't too horrible if you pair it up with...

Kill white blood cells (or only taget their DNA). They're the only cells in your blood with the DNA. Since white blood cells don't make more blood cells (they're produced elsewhere) and it doesn't help them work, it really doesn't matter that much if they go off accidentally. You don't need the blueprints once the house is built.
Voran
Definately going to use the bleach-bomb idea, but looking back on the original chem-thingie.

Does anyone know if my previous thought on 'blood is always moving in the body' is valid? I assume as long as the heart pumps, blood is always going, dunno if it sorta pools anywhere in your system or not, or even slows down to the point where its almost pooling, but not quite.

I do like the suggested temperature sensitive trigger though. Wonder if that would have an added benefit when you nail a ghoul with it...
Rev
I know that unmoving blood has a tendancy to clot, which makes me realize that perhaps you could tie it into the biochemical clotting cascade (there is this huge chain of things that trigger other things that trigger other things and so on) somewhere. The unmoving blood clotting thing is one of the problems with artificial hearts. Nowdays they design them so that there are no stagnant volumes.
Czar Eggbert
I might tie it into to moisture, thats the only real chemical change I can see with blood outside the body. Better yet have it tied to moisture, tempature, and possably UV light.


_The Eggman
Neruda's Ghost
QUOTE (nezumi)
How do plateletes know its not in your bloodstream any more?


Thrombin.

QUOTE (Rev)
I know that unmoving blood has a tendancy to clot, which makes me realize that perhaps you could tie it into the biochemical clotting cascade (there is this huge chain of things that trigger other things that trigger other things and so on) somewhere.


Its the platelets and Thrombin factor cascade in the plasma that causes blood to clot. I think that a chemical agent that relies on blood pressure (bloodstream flow) would be a lot more difficult to design than one that one thats just temperature dependent. But this since this is all theoretical I guess its possible.

BTW, nasty idea about the Ghouls...
Nikoli
Might manage it with a reaction to a chemical not normally in the blood-stream yet found in the atmosphere of a sprawl. Like common cleaning solutions, or carbon monoxide.
Neruda's Ghost
I think if its in the atmosphere, its in your bloodstream unless your wearing a filter or using an air tank.

The other problem is that a compound in the plasma designed to break down nucleic acids once it leaves the body covers a runner's spilled blood, but a stray hair left behind could still be used to id him. It all depends on how thorough a search is conducted and how badly the opposition wants to nail the runner.
Rev
Yea, any of these things should operate as a t# modifier for the attempt to gather a sample, not as an automatic success, if your game goes heavy into stuff like that anyway.
nezumi
Since white blood cells are the only parts of your blood with DNA, you could take out the nymph nodes (there are only like a dozen of them, iirc), and replace them with ones that make white blood cells without DNA. Then you don't have to worry about all this craziness about things breaking down under certain conditions.

I was under the impression that hair didn't have DNA, although dandruff would, and 90% of the time saliva and sweat would as well.
toturi
Just use the Sterilise spell and clean up the astral afterwards.
Firewall
QUOTE (Nikoli)
QUOTE (Neruda's Ghost @ Mar 5 2004, 04:07 PM)
Incidently, if said shadowrunner dies along the run you might end up with an Obi-Wan death trick with only the guys equipment left behind. Nice plausible deniability for the Johnson  smile.gif

Sounds more like something the Johnson might use without the runners knowledge.

Just what I was thinking. Though it depends on the Johnson. A chemical that just eats all the DNA might work to leave no witnesses. (not even the runners) From memory (theoretical/cryptozoological biochemistry; don't ask) you would not die immediately.

Anyone got a timescale for death from DNA deletion? It would be slow, I think. A few days maybe, very painful toward the end. Maybe the Johnson could use it to ensure compliance.

"We can remove the agent and restore your DNA, just as long as you complete one more run..."
Method

Perhaps I can be of some service. I do genetic research (mostly on viruses) at a major university in the U.S. I am also getting ready to attend medical school.

The chemical signal that usually activates the platelet clotting cascade is actually called tissue plasminogen activator (TPA). It is released from endothelial cells (those that line blood vessels) when the cells are damaged and blood starts spilling out of the body. Your best bet would be a synthetic DNAse or RNAse enzyme that activates at room temperature (all enzymes are thermosensative) in the presence of TPA.

In the laboratory we routinely use synthetic agents to reduce DNA and RNA contamination (even one copy of a viral genome can create false positives on PCR-based genetic tests). We use a product called RNAse AWAY that destroys genetic material in very short order.

Here is a link to a technical report, if you are interested.

Technical Report

If you do a Google search for RNAse AWAY you'll find more info that you would care to read...

Hope that helps. If I can answer any other questions you might have, let me know.


Method
Siege
My god, you get all sorts on this forum. grinbig.gif

-Siege
Method
QUOTE (Siege)
My god, you get all sorts on this forum. grinbig.gif


What can I say? I was a nerdy gamer long before I became a research scientist. cool.gif
Neruda's Ghost
Ditto.
Kalibar
Hey what particular fields are you guys involved with?
Also for the activate outside the body deal how does this sound:
Perhaps you could design a cold agglutinin(antibody that becomes activate at temperatures below human body temp) that targets DNA or maybe just WBC's.
Only problem I see is it wouldn't work exept at temperatures between the temps of 0įC to 20įC, of course bioengineering may progressed to the point where you can alter the temperature range at which the antibodies activate by 2064.
This could be especial effective if you gave it a half life of only a few hours and could inject it. Before a run you dose yourself up, and for the next X hours, no DNA from blood. Still thinking up ways to deal with DNA in other tissues...


Edited: missing a key except in there oops...
Neruda's Ghost
QUOTE (Kalibar)
Hey what particular fields are you guys involved with?

Cerebrovascular Sciences. What about you?

I like Method's suggestion. I figured it could be a protease linked to the cascade, but I was thinking it would be to dangerous to have it recirculated back into the blood stream. Having it both temp and TPA linked would solve it, kudos Method. BTW in going to suggest using RNase AWAY for our next PCR runs. Who says you can't use stuff from dumpshock smile.gif

I don't have the SOTA sourcebook so I'm still in the dark about the level of genetic sequencing in 2064 (I guess the runners could shave completely to reduce follicle DNA). I don't know if it would be easier to use a protease or an antibody; the antibody sounds great, but it'd be difficult to tailor make for each runner.

Besides, even if RNase AWAY isn't a carcinogen, unless the johnson assures me that his new DNA-Be-Gone drug comes from a delta lab, there's no way in hell I'm injecting it. biggrin.gif
Method
QUOTE (Kalibar)
Hey what particular fields are you guys involved with?

Also for the activate outside the body deal how does this sound: Perhaps you could design a cold agglutinin(antibody that becomes activate at temperatures below human body temp) that targets DNA or maybe just WBC's.

I have undergraduate degrees in biology, zoology/physiology, and medical microbiology and a masterís degree in pathobiology (with a focus in virology). I do research in infectious disease.


Itís an interesting idea, but I donít think it would work. Antibodies are a means to an end. They don't actually destroy whatever they attach to (although they can neutralize toxins). In actuality they "mark" an antigen so that specific WBCs can recognize it as foreign and destroy it. Outside the body WBCs would die quickly, so an activated Ab would be useless. An Ab specific to WBCs would also be a moot point for obvious reasons (youíd be targeting the very thing you need to destroy the DNA).
Method
QUOTE (Neruda's Ghost)
BTW in going to suggest using RNase AWAY for our next PCR runs. Who says you can't use stuff from dumpshock smile.gif


Now when you get caught reading the forums at work you can tell your boss you're discussing projects with other researchers and you wouldn't be lying. devil.gif
Neruda's Ghost
That's dumpshock MED forum, thank you very much. biggrin.gif
Lantzer
I've always been a fan of the BottleO'Bleach on runs. It has so many uses.
Not as many as a clipboard, or duct tape, but it's still useful.

I've had a couple characters who lived by the KISS rule. They were pretty succesful.


Adarael
QUOTE
In the laboratory we routinely use synthetic agents to reduce DNA and RNA contamination (even one copy of a viral genome can create false positives on PCR-based genetic tests).


I gotta change my underwear.
You have no idea how long it's been since I've seen anyone who's a gamer who even know what PCR was...
Kalibar
Yeah, not a subject I expected to see while checking the computer on break. I'm starting my first year of Internal Medicine Residence in July, and am currently working towards an Infectious Disease Fellowship.
Method

It makes sense to me. I think SR appeals to scientifically/technically minded people.

Kalibar: where do you find the time to play SR!?!

Seriously though, do you know what your fellowship in infectious disease might entail? If its a research-based fellowship I'd love to hear what you are working on... of coarse the internet might not be the best "forum" for such discussions, what with all the new bio-terrorism concerns...
Kalibar
Well, I'm playing on weekends I don't have call right now.(And the occassional weekday session if the schedule allows it.) Unfortunately there are going to be a lot fewer of them starting in July. My one group of PC's will be scattered to other hospitals across America, and the others will be 8 hours away. frown.gif

I actually met more people who play Shadowrun in med school than in College. We had a group who tried to play at least once a week. It was a great break from studying.

The fellowship won't start for another 3 years. But I'll be doing research blocks in the ID department throughout residency. Nothing sensitive to bioterrorism, mostly dealing with our good friend MRSA and some work on ESBL's...

Back on topic: I realize antibodies are a tagging system, but it should agglutinate the DNA... Can that still be used in PCR? How about for ritual sorcery? Also do they mention how DNA fingerprinting is even done in Shadowrun(as oppose to how it's done now)?
Siege
There hasn't been a SR canon reference on forensics information, never mind the detail for which you're asking.

And what part of the blood constitutes the ritual sample? You're kidding, right?

Remember, think abstract. grinbig.gif

-Siege
Kalibar
Well, according to MITS, p37. The tissue must contain the targets DNA for it to be a material link.

As was mentioned previously the WBC's are the only part of blood with DNA(ignoring the endothelial cells or other cells from surrounding tissue which aren't technically part of the blood but could be found in some minute quantity in a blood stain or sample), that would mean you need WBC's in the blood for it to be a material link.
Neruda's Ghost
QUOTE (Kalibar)
Well, according to MITS, p37. The tissue must contain the targets DNA for it to be a material link.


Speaking other than blood, would mitochondrial DNA be sufficient for a link.

I read that some forensic labs, even comercial ones such as Reliagene Tech, can extract a sequence from a hair shaft even without a follicle root. These are the same labs that can sequence the code of human remains several hundred years old.

Following that though, would it be possible for a ritual link to be established on a long dead corpse and bind that beings astral spirit? or am I just smoking crack?
Darkest Angel
IIRC Ritual links are only good for 24 hours after they were left, regardless of any other factor with the sole exception of having a preserve spell cast on them.

Here's what the FAQ has on the matter:

QUOTE
In SR2, tissue samples were only viable as material links for [Essence] hours; is this also true in SR3?
There is no such rule in SR3--we leave it up to the GM to decide, as appropriate for storytelling purposes. There are many factors that may affect the exact time--the amount of tissue/fluid, environmental conditions, etc. In any case, tissue samples shouldn't be useful for long--no more than 24 hours and probably less, unless you use a Preserve spell.
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