GMs, don't let your players make this team., maybe a repost. Options

[Laodicea]

Angel Summoner & BMX Bandit

[Summerstorm]

Yeah... i know that. And yeah i am sure i saw it in here somewhere too. And YEAH... that is totally SR4. One Mage and one whatever.

To be honest that IS my group at the moment. (But it is Angel Summoner and BMX-Gang).

[Troll]

I'd be more likely to try and recreate Sir Digby Chicken Caesar as a beetle burnout.

[Karoline]

Hehe, I love that clip. I've seen it posted on here before during a 'mages are overpowered' type thread if I recall correctly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfHBPusZg6E

[Glyph]

That is the drawback of an open build system - it might let you make a wondrous array of incredibly different characters, but for the same 400 build points, you can wind up with characters with very different power levels and overall usefulness.

[CanRay]

"OK, we have an Elf Rich Dilettante who's 'running the Shadows for kicks, an Orc Barrens Ex-Ganger that's 'Going Professional' because he's almost 20, a Pixie Mage (Because that isn't stereotypical!), and a Human Hobo with a Shotgun." "LOTS of Shotguns." "Right, lots of Shotguns."

[suoq]

That is the drawback of an open build system - it might let you make a wondrous array of incredibly different characters, but for the same 400 build points, you can wind up with characters with very different power levels and overall usefulness.

There's a non-open build system that forces balance regardless of the players choices? Which system is that?

[Mayhem_2006]

Never underestimate the carnage that can be wrought by one Hobo with a Shotgun...

[Mayhem_2006]

There's a non-open build system that forces balance regardless of the players choices? Which system is that?

Class based systems do, at least, start out with the party in some semblance of balance.

Point based systems, not so much...

[CanRay]

"OK, we took the job in Hong Kong, now, who here can fly us there because we have no chance in hell of getting through the Airport. ... Anyone? ... Anyone at all? ... Aw crap."

[suoq]

Class based systems do, at least, start out with the party in some semblance of balance.

What I'm hearing you say, since you won't specify a system, is that the less choices a player has, the more balanced the characters are. As they get more choices (no longer starting out) they get less balanced.

Is there a class based system that starts out with a semblance of balance and keeps that semblance of balance regardless of the players decisions?

If not, what's the difference? If you just want to limit a player's choices, use pre-gens.

[Glyph]

I consider unequal characters one of the unavoidable drawbacks of the open build system - but I still think open build systems are worth it because of the freedom of choice and sheer scope that they offer.

Still, the GM can mitigate the worst of it by giving more specific guidelines than "400 points". If you specify that it is a game of punks from the barrens, or stone cold pros, or the typical mix of street scum and former corporate types, players will have a bit more of an idea what kind of characters to make.

And players can mitigate the drawbacks of an open build system by making characters who can contribute something to a team, and are capable of working with a team. Some ideas and concepts would be fine for a novel, but are not terribly useful for playing in a game.

[Nifft]

What I'm hearing you say, since you won't specify a system, is that the less choices a player has, the more balanced the characters are. As they get more choices (no longer starting out) they get less balanced.

Mmm. It's more about the kinds of things you can sacrifice.

For example, in Star Wars Saga Edition (hereafter "SWSE"), you can't sacrifice your base skill competency when you level up in favor of focusing entirely on one skill. Every PC gets a bonus of half his level to all skills. By level 20, you are pretty darn good at everything.

FATE has a similar system with their skill pyramid: you cannot advance your specialty until you've built up a base of other competencies.

In contrast, Shadowrun and D&D 3.x allow you to sell basic competency and use the proceeds to specialize yourself. The problem isn't that you can specialize -- all systems I've seen allow that -- it's that you can render yourself broadly incompetent, and doing so gives you a mechanical reward.

Aside from the enforcement of broad competency, SWSE and FATE also compartmentalize ("silo") the various advancement rewards, while SR4 allows you to devote every shred of Karma you earn to furthering your specialization. Same for ¥ (for some characters). D&D 3.x seems like it silos advancement options, but you generally spend your class levels, feats, and GP on the same thing: getting better at whatever it is you do. SWSE uses a similar mechanical base to 3.5e, but they did a better job of ensuring you can't put every single resource you get towards your specialization. The things you get from your class levels ("Talents") generally give you new uses for skills rather than flat bonuses to them, for example, while only one feat ("Skill Focus") gives you a bonus to a skill.

The way FATE separates skills from powers is by frequently granting skill increases, and rarely granting "Refresh" increases. You buy your powers with Refresh. You can specialize a bit with your powers: generally, you can spend 1 Refresh to get a +1 to one Skill under some circumstances, or to remove one kind of penalty (up to -2) from one Skill, but that's it, and you usually can't do both.

In SR4, you can sacrifice your most basic competency, including all four of your limbs (!!!) for a few more points to stick in complex forms or whatnot.

Cheers, -- N

[Karoline]

There's a non-open build system that forces balance regardless of the players choices? Which system is that?

The system that composes of one class, one race, and one set track of skills/abilities and equipment (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[toturi]

For example, in Star Wars Saga Edition (hereafter "SWSE"), you can't sacrifice your base skill competency when you level up in favor of focusing entirely on one skill. Every PC gets a bonus of half his level to all skills. By level 20, you are pretty darn good at everything.

FATE has a similar system with their skill pyramid: you cannot advance your specialty until you've built up a base of other competencies.

The Fate system that I have seen does not enforce board competency. You are not necessarily forced to have a skill pyramid. You can have a skill tower. It does however seperate skill advancement from Refresh advancement.

For SWSE, by the time you are level 20, if you are untrained in something, you can be as good as a trained level 0 specialist in that skill. You can sacrifice basic competency in some skills for a little more in something else.

Similarly, in SR4, you do have basic competency - it is called defaulting. Just as in SWSE, you can drop your Attributes and be less competent in the associated skill.

[tete]

That is the drawback of an open build system

I would say it isn't open vs non-open, if the game has all choices being equal (which they are not in SR). GURPS 4e for example is pretty tight on 5pts vs 10pts etc across the board but they have been tweaking it for years and it still has some problems. Open systems are just harder to make balanced if you have to account for everything. Remove all the POWERS (cyberware, magic, psionics, etc) and its much simpler to deal with. The real problem with open systems is how slow character creation becomes.

[Elfenlied]

"OK, we have an Elf Rich Dilettante who's 'running the Shadows for kicks, an Orc Barrens Ex-Ganger that's 'Going Professional' because he's almost 20, a Pixie Mage (Because that isn't stereotypical!), and a Human Hobo with a Shotgun." "LOTS of Shotguns." "Right, lots of Shotguns."

Replace the "Pixie" with "Free Spirit", and the "Human Hobo" with "Dwarf Hobo", and you're talking exactly about my current group (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

And for the record, I'm playing the rich elf dilettante (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[CanRay]

Well, at least it's not another Lesbian Elf Stripper Ninja. Had enough of those in my group.

[Elfenlied]

Well, at least it's not another Lesbian Elf Stripper Ninja. Had enough of those in my group.

Tbh, I've never had any of those in my groups. But then again, I've had an effeminate white tiger shapeshifter adept with missile mastery throwing poker cards and running around as an aged human male dressed in a white tux while in human form.

Compared to that, my Elf college student financing her little side project (a nightclub taken over from the Vory) with the occassional run or two seems rather tame.

[jakephillips]

Yep balance can be a problem if your GM doesen't help guide character creation.

[Nifft]

The Fate system that I have seen does not enforce board competency. You are not necessarily forced to have a skill pyramid.

Well yeah, you can throw away the mechanism by which broad competency is enforced, and if you do that, it doesn't enforce broad competency.

There's a reason why I specify FATE + skill pyramid rather than just plain FATE, ya know.

For SWSE, by the time you are level 20, if you are untrained in something, you can be as good as a trained level 0 specialist in that skill. You can sacrifice basic competency in some skills for a little more in something else.

Similarly, in SR4, you do have basic competency - it is called defaulting. Just as in SWSE, you can drop your Attributes and be less competent in the associated skill.

No. The difference here is that, by level 20, SWSE forces you to gain a +10 to all skill checks over what you could have had at level 1.

NOTHING in Shadowrun forces me to raise my dump stats. NOTHING. I can default with the same die pool at 0 Karma and at 2,000 Karma.

[Tiralee]

The Lesbian Elf Stripper Ninja is one of the less broken "archtypes" we've had at our table.

Honestly, sometimes I think my playes like to fire up the old "they fight crime!" generator and base their PC's on that, just to make me hurt them.*


*At least, that's what the message on loop says in my dungeon complex.


-Tir
Muhahahahahahaahhaaaaaa...
http://www.theyfightcrime.org/ if you're interested. Or sadistic.

[Neurosis]

I wonder what precipitated the creation of this video. If it's not a subtle but hilarious commentary on game balance, I don't know what it is.

[toturi]

DP

[toturi]

Well yeah, you can throw away the mechanism by which broad competency is enforced, and if you do that, it doesn't enforce broad competency.

There's a reason why I specify FATE + skill pyramid rather than just plain FATE, ya know.

No. The difference here is that, by level 20, SWSE forces you to gain a +10 to all skill checks over what you could have had at level 1.

NOTHING in Shadowrun forces me to raise my dump stats. NOTHING. I can default with the same die pool at 0 Karma and at 2,000 Karma.

You can add in the mechanism by which broad competency is enforced and if you do that, it enforces broad competency. The skill pyramid is not fundamental to the FATE system.

Again nothing in SWSE forces you to raise your dump stats either. NOTHING. Your Charisma 8 can well be Charisma 8 at level 20.