Angel Summoner & BMX Bandit

Yeah... i know that. And yeah i am sure i saw it in here somewhere too. And YEAH... that is totally SR4. One Mage and one whatever.

To be honest that IS my group at the moment. (But it is Angel Summoner and BMX-Gang).

I'd be more likely to try and recreate Sir Digby Chicken Caesar as a beetle burnout.

Hehe, I love that clip. I've seen it posted on here before during a 'mages are overpowered' type thread if I recall correctly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfHBPusZg6E

That is the drawback of an open build system - it might let you make a wondrous array of incredibly different characters, but for the same 400 build points, you can wind up with characters with very different power levels and overall usefulness.

"OK, we have an Elf Rich Dilettante who's 'running the Shadows for kicks, an Orc Barrens Ex-Ganger that's 'Going Professional' because he's almost 20, a Pixie Mage (Because that isn't stereotypical!), and a Human Hobo with a Shotgun." "LOTS of Shotguns." "Right, lots of Shotguns."

There's a non-open build system that forces balance regardless of the players choices? Which system is that?

Never underestimate the carnage that can be wrought by one Hobo with a Shotgun...

Class based systems do, at least, start out with the party in some semblance of balance.

Point based systems, not so much...

"OK, we took the job in Hong Kong, now, who here can fly us there because we have no chance in hell of getting through the Airport. ... Anyone? ... Anyone at all? ... Aw crap."

What I'm hearing you say, since you won't specify a system, is that the less choices a player has, the more balanced the characters are. As they get more choices (no longer starting out) they get less balanced.

Is there a class based system that starts out with a semblance of balance and keeps that semblance of balance regardless of the players decisions?

If not, what's the difference? If you just want to limit a player's choices, use pre-gens.

I consider unequal characters one of the unavoidable drawbacks of the open build system - but I still think open build systems are worth it because of the freedom of choice and sheer scope that they offer.

Still, the GM can mitigate the worst of it by giving more specific guidelines than "400 points". If you specify that it is a game of punks from the barrens, or stone cold pros, or the typical mix of street scum and former corporate types, players will have a bit more of an idea what kind of characters to make.

And players can mitigate the drawbacks of an open build system by making characters who can contribute something to a team, and are capable of working with a team. Some ideas and concepts would be fine for a novel, but are not terribly useful for playing in a game.

Mmm. It's more about the kinds of things you can sacrifice.

For example, in Star Wars Saga Edition (hereafter "SWSE"), you can't sacrifice your base skill competency when you level up in favor of focusing entirely on one skill. Every PC gets a bonus of half his level to all skills. By level 20, you are pretty darn good at everything.

FATE has a similar system with their skill pyramid: you cannot advance your specialty until you've built up a base of other competencies.

In contrast, Shadowrun and D&D 3.x allow you to sell basic competency and use the proceeds to specialize yourself. The problem isn't that you can specialize -- all systems I've seen allow that -- it's that you can render yourself broadly incompetent, and doing so gives you a mechanical reward.

Aside from the enforcement of broad competency, SWSE and FATE also compartmentalize ("silo") the various advancement rewards, while SR4 allows you to devote every shred of Karma you earn to furthering your specialization. Same for ¥ (for some characters). D&D 3.x seems like it silos advancement options, but you generally spend your class levels, feats, and GP on the same thing: getting better at whatever it is you do. SWSE uses a similar mechanical base to 3.5e, but they did a better job of ensuring you can't put every single resource you get towards your specialization. The things you get from your class levels ("Talents") generally give you new uses for skills rather than flat bonuses to them, for example, while only one feat ("Skill Focus") gives you a bonus to a skill.

The way FATE separates skills from powers is by frequently granting skill increases, and rarely granting "Refresh" increases. You buy your powers with Refresh. You can specialize a bit with your powers: generally, you can spend 1 Refresh to get a +1 to one Skill under some circumstances, or to remove one kind of penalty (up to -2) from one Skill, but that's it, and you usually can't do both.

In SR4, you can sacrifice your most basic competency, including all four of your limbs (!!!) for a few more points to stick in complex forms or whatnot.

Cheers, -- N

The system that composes of one class, one race, and one set track of skills/abilities and equipment

The Fate system that I have seen does not enforce board competency. You are not necessarily forced to have a skill pyramid. You can have a skill tower. It does however seperate skill advancement from Refresh advancement.

For SWSE, by the time you are level 20, if you are untrained in something, you can be as good as a trained level 0 specialist in that skill. You can sacrifice basic competency in some skills for a little more in something else.

Similarly, in SR4, you do have basic competency - it is called defaulting. Just as in SWSE, you can drop your Attributes and be less competent in the associated skill.

I would say it isn't open vs non-open, if the game has all choices being equal (which they are not in SR). GURPS 4e for example is pretty tight on 5pts vs 10pts etc across the board but they have been tweaking it for years and it still has some problems. Open systems are just harder to make balanced if you have to account for everything. Remove all the POWERS (cyberware, magic, psionics, etc) and its much simpler to deal with. The real problem with open systems is how slow character creation becomes.

Replace the "Pixie" with "Free Spirit", and the "Human Hobo" with "Dwarf Hobo", and you're talking exactly about my current group

And for the record, I'm playing the rich elf dilettante

Well, at least it's not another Lesbian Elf Stripper Ninja. Had enough of those in my group.

Tbh, I've never had any of those in my groups. But then again, I've had an effeminate white tiger shapeshifter adept with missile mastery throwing poker cards and running around as an aged human male dressed in a white tux while in human form.

Compared to that, my Elf college student financing her little side project (a nightclub taken over from the Vory) with the occassional run or two seems rather tame.

Yep balance can be a problem if your GM doesen't help guide character creation.

Well yeah, you can throw away the mechanism by which broad competency is enforced, and if you do that, it doesn't enforce broad competency.

There's a reason why I specify FATE + skill pyramid rather than just plain FATE, ya know.


No. The difference here is that, by level 20, SWSE forces you to gain a +10 to all skill checks over what you could have had at level 1.

NOTHING in Shadowrun forces me to raise my dump stats. NOTHING. I can default with the same die pool at 0 Karma and at 2,000 Karma.

The Lesbian Elf Stripper Ninja is one of the less broken "archtypes" we've had at our table.

Honestly, sometimes I think my playes like to fire up the old "they fight crime!" generator and base their PC's on that, just to make me hurt them.*


*At least, that's what the message on loop says in my dungeon complex.


-Tir
Muhahahahahahaahhaaaaaa...
http://www.theyfightcrime.org/ if you're interested. Or sadistic.

I wonder what precipitated the creation of this video. If it's not a subtle but hilarious commentary on game balance, I don't know what it is.

DP

You can add in the mechanism by which broad competency is enforced and if you do that, it enforces broad competency. The skill pyramid is not fundamental to the FATE system.

Again nothing in SWSE forces you to raise your dump stats either. NOTHING. Your Charisma 8 can well be Charisma 8 at level 20.

Thanks for that, now i have to build the following characters
"He's a scrappy overambitious paranormal investigator looking for a cure to the poison coursing through his veins. She's a scantily clad bisexual Valkyrie with a birthmark shaped like Liberty's torch. They fight crime!"
Or maybe this pair
"He's a war-weary albino vampire hunter on his last day in the job. She's an artistic red-headed schoolgirl who believes she is the reincarnation of an ancient Egyptian queen. They fight crime!"

<weary Sigh>

See what I mean?

-Tir

... which is why I list them together, rather than as a single thing.

The FATE system is the origin of the FATE Skill Pyramid, and the Skill Pyramid enforces broad competency.


8 Charisma (untrained, with no other bonus) is a -1 penalty to your check at level 1, and a +9 bonus to your check at level 20. You don't need to raise your dump stats in SWSE: you get a bonus based on your level no matter what. Your comparison with SR4 defaulting is poor.

Are you all caught up now?

I just found my next npc team.

He's an old-fashioned devious boxer possessed of the uncanny powers of an insect. She's a warm-hearted Buddhist advertising executive with a flame-thrower. They fight crime!
He's an ungodly chivalrous vampire hunter on the hunt for the last specimen of a great and near-mythical creature. She's a radical nymphomaniac museum curator with the power to see death. They fight crime!
And a Drop Bear rigger.

My god, they practically write themselves.

Cheers, -- N

I know, right? There are some brilliant ones I've gotten.

Given freedom of choice, I must be allowed to choose poorly occasionally. Otherwise it isn't freedom of choice.

He's a one-legged gay card sharp possessed of the uncanny powers of an insect. She's a sharp-shooting psychic angel who dreams of becoming Elvis. They fight crime!

Best one yet, generating characters now...

LOTS of shotguns.




There is one MMO that broadly illustrates the difficulties of balance in open vs structured character creation.

Back in alpha testing, the game City of Heroes as an open build system. Pick any abilities up to a certain total. There were two major problems they kept running into: The testers kept creating "gimped" builds at first, because they didn't know the system. Later, when they DID know the system, they kept making variations of the same basic build, because it happened to the the most power-optimized one.

They eventually had to scrap the whole system and re-build it using a class/level structure.

It's not that a structured system is necessarily better overall. But it does tend to 'force' diversity and is a lot easier to balance.


-karma

Yet your level bonus is not a dump stat, it is a seperate bonus. Your bonus from attribute remains the same -1, indeed you don't need to raise your dump stats in SWSE. To use your own words, NOTHING in SWSE forces you to raise your dump stats. NOTHING.

Somehow, I doubt people would be interested in playing Star Wars: Stormtrooper Edition.

Or maybe they would.

As long as they're Clonetroopers. They could actually hit what they shot at.

Yes, yes, I know. Stormtroopers can actually shoot straight, and prove it on Hoth.

Bioware, creators of Star Wars: The Old Republic MMORPG seem to be under the impression that people will enjoy that. They think that everyone isn't going to roll a jedi of some flavor. I think they're naive.

I for one will roll a Sith Inquisitor. Tada!

If only repeating my words would help you to understand them, we'd be done a lot quicker. But since it doesn't, let's do a quick recap of the conversation so far:

Me: SWSE enforces general competence as level goes up.

You: SR does too! Because you can default!

Me: No, because in SWSE skills go up as your level goes up. In SR, NOTHING forces you to raise your attributes, which is what would increase your default pool. If you start with a crappy die pool at chargen, there is NOTHING which guarantees that your die pool will increase over the next six thousand Karma.

You: Hey, typing NOTHING looks cool. Let me try that a few times... NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING. Am I winning yet?

Me: Sigh.

I hope this has made my previous argument easier for you to understand. If there's something else you don't understand, please do ask about it specifically.

Your recap is incorrect. I have corrected it. I would assume typing NOTHING certainly looks cool to you, since you typed it first. It is evident however that you do not seem to understand your own words when it is used on you.

I'm going to point out that I feel EVE Online has a remark skill development system. Every skill has a level from I-V as well as a rank that goes from 1 to 16. The rank indicates how much skill points the skill takes to train compared to the base training time. So a Rank 1 skill requires 250 skill points for level I. So a Rank 4 would take 4x as long requiring 1000 skill points. Each additional level requires about 5.65x as many total skill points so previously earned skill points towards lower levels count for upper levels. This means that the time to go from IV to V is ALWAYS less than the total time to get to level IV. The net result? You get about 80% of the effectiveness of a skill in about 15-20% of the time it takes to get 100% effectiveness.

Skills provide some boosts to various aspects and stats, but their primary purpose is to limit what equipment you can use and what ships you can pilot and serve as prerequisites for other skills. You get some basic equipment for the skill at level I. It's generally the worst of the lot. The best stuff is reserved for level IV (for the most part) with a few things at level V. It's the prerequisite portion which I feel RPGs can benefit from to diminish overspecialization. While I don't like requiring a skill level to use an item, I am in favor of penalties for using an item you don't have the requisite skill for. My suggestion would be an unfamiliar penalty of -1 or -2. Additionally, specializations would add +2 for the purpose of determining if you're skilled enough for that item. I would say that no item would require a skill higher than 4 (with perhaps a few exceptions).

For example.
Pistols
Rank 1: Walther Secura
Rank 2: Walther Secura Kompakt
Rank 3: Morrissay Alta
Rank 4: Ares Predator IV

If you had a pistols skill of 3, you would take a -2 penalty when using the Ares Predator, unless you had a specialization. By making 4 the normal high for most items with 2 being the baseline normal for most of the decent items, you create an incentive to broaden your skill base into more skills.



Charming.

He's an uncontrollable voodoo inventor with a secret. She's an enchanted nymphomaniac college professor who can talk to animals. They fight crime!

He's a lounge-singing ninja dwarf on a mission from God. She's an orphaned foul-mouthed femme fatale who hides her beauty behind a pair of thick-framed spectacles. They fight crime!

He's a scrappy crooked boxer who hides his scarred face behind a mask. She's a psychotic hypochondriac barmaid fleeing from a Satanic cult. They fight crime!

He's a sword-wielding flyboy sorceror looking for a cure to the poison coursing through his veins. She's an elegant kleptomaniac barmaid with an incredible destiny. They fight crime!

He's an oversexed bohemian paranormal investigator. She's an artistic nymphomaniac opera singer from a different time and place. They fight crime! <--- Golden

--



People's obsession with baby eaters ruins Star Wars. Galaxies -used- to be good when the baby-eater class was rare, time-consuming, and hard to get. When they opened up the class to every joe you suddenly had a bunch of baby eaters running around.

The quality of a Star Wars media is inversely proportional to the number of baby-eaters present in the media.

Ah, I see. You have nothing to say that is relevant to the discussion. You should have said so sooner.

Are you even capable of having a point? Or do you just parrot back whatever you just read?

Would you like to turn right, or not left, at the next T-intersection?

As for the SW thing, I wouldn't say that the system forces general competence as much as gives it. Forces would mean that you are required to raise general competence, while gives is what it does, which is simply give you bonuses.

SR does neither. At no point are you forced to raise skills outside your specialty (either through the skill itself or a linked attribute) or given any sort of bonuses for free. There is maybe some level of this since increasing agility for the sake of your ability to shoot people in the face also improves your ability to hide in the shadows and perform martial arts, but that is a somewhat different matter.

So, the short and long of it is that SW has general competence because it gives you free stuff, not because it forces you to do anything.

Wow, right off the bat:
He's a genetically engineered day-dreaming cop with acid for blood. She's a brilliant foul-mouthed safe cracker with an evil twin sister. They fight crime!

Edit:He's a globe-trotting moralistic stage actor who knows the secret of the alien invasion. She's a ditzy green-skinned bounty hunter living on borrowed time. They fight crime!
No way this is purely random. That goes too well together.

He's an underprivileged zombie werewolf on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned French-Canadian mechanic who dreams of becoming Elvis. They fight crime!

He's a hate-fuelled Catholic romance novelist with no name. She's a ditzy kleptomaniac doctor with a flame-thrower. They fight crime!

While I agree that the general competence bonus can be viewed as a gift, do note that it's a gift you may not turn down. I dunno why you'd want to turn the gift down, but if you did, you can't.

@ DireRadiant: IMHO there are choices which are interesting (choosing in which situations you'll get a bonus or negate a penalty) vs. choices which are boring ("Would you like a +1 to X, or would you like a +2 to X? They don't stack."). Making a "wrong" choice in the former isn't really even wrong -- it's just insurance for a situation which hasn't yet come up. Making a wrong choice in the latter -- choosing an option which is strictly worse than another option -- that's just bad system design. IMHO a good system is one that allows the player to make rational choices without needing to figure out which options are traps.

Cheers, -- N

D&D 4E is the closest I can think of. High primary/secondary stat and you're pretty much set, but yes there is still some variance between characters, some classes/powers are better than others. After that its all character tactics, but the only truly bad characters I've seen are either because of low primary/secondary stats or because or poor player tactics.

A Shadowrun campaign requires a bit of knowledge on what power level the characters should be on before you make one. As mentioned a person can make anything from a ganger to a possession based mage to start with. This is something both players and GMs need to be in on, because just asking for players to make characters and show up with them is going to result in characters on opposite ends of the spectrum. Not discussing roles ahead of time can also result in the GM trying to do normal runs with silly teams like 6 awakened characters (my current group).

The same is true of any RPG really. Whilst some would argue that its the duty of a good GM to tailor the adventure to suit the characters, giving each their chance to shine, there are only so many plots in which the Dwarf's massive collection of baking related skills and feats can be used to save the day.

"There is no escape from this prison, and tomorrow you are to be executed! I leave you to contemplate this awful fate whilst I go and find a baker capable of making the finest elf-cake, or else the feast tomorrow will be a disaster!"

"A baker you say? Well, it just so happens... maybe we can cut a deal?"

"Wow, who would have thought that *this* evil overlord would be a gourmet too?"

Out of interest, how are the players handling their new "instant PC generator"? There's got to be some golden runs out of some of these.

-Tir.