Broken Rules., Or where RAW just fails. Options

[Dumori]

I don't see any rule stating that the passengers stop applying the vehicles armor to them either. Simply that they have to resist damage along with the vehicle. Right about that part it states that passengers get a bonus from the chassis equal to it's armor.

Even with the bonus armour the still take damage that doesn't even hurt the transport as as far as I tell the armour isn't acutaly hardened on a vehicles so at most they get 20 extra dice and take it as stun. This means you can kill a TANK or anything by narrow bursting it to death it remains unharmed and you get a nice ride. That is RAW and maybe even RAI.

[Yerameyahu]

Nothing wrong with passengers getting damaged more than the vehicle; the vehicle is tougher, and bullet holes don't necessarily reduce its functionality. I'm only worried about getting a free 'multi-attack' on people just because they're inside a vehicle, and you fired 10 bullets instead of 6.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm not sure how you can have failed to notice the glaring problems with it - presumably your GM has houseruled the chase combat rules into something sane. Here's a good example of one of the ways in which they do not function.

A really badass rigger (rolling 30 dice on vehicle tests) on a Suzuki Mirage racing bike (Speed 200) is being chased by the cops - 15 cops (8 dice on vehicle tests) on Dodge Scoots (Speed 60). However, an angry old lady (3 dice on vehicle tests) is following the cops because they cut her off in traffic, and wants to give them a talking to. She's also riding on a Dodge Scoots.

The rigger starts at extreme range. He knows he can't take 15 cops on in a fair fight so he just wants to get away. Logically, he should be able to get away - his bike is over three times faster than anybody else's vehicle, and he's practically a superhumanly good driver. But he can't, in fact, he's going to get run off the road in short order because the rules are silly. Of course, were the old lady not angrily chasing the cops, things would be (even more illogically) completely different. It would still be utterly impossible for the rigger to actually get away, but at least the cops wouldn't be able to run him off the road either.

Well, by the rules, the Rigger gets an additional 14 Dice to avoid the Cops (Speed Difference), and since his dice pool is now 44 to the cops 8, well, you can just take auto successes...

So, lets assume Hard Situation (Threshold 3) and Tight Terrain (Threshold +4) for a total Threshold of 7...
The Rigger has -1 Threshold for DNI COntrol)... Threshold 6, Cops are either at Threshold 6 or 7 dependant upon Rigger connections

Note: Any Crash Tests will occur with this Threshold due to circumstance, unless teh participants manage to alter the circumstance...
Also, Any Piloting Rolls will Occur with this Circumstance

Notice that the Cops do not have the requisite Dice Pools to succeed at the Proposed DIfficulty, while the Rigger Does... The Cops are just a single bad roll away from death, while the Rigger moves happily along...

So... Chase Combat...
Step 1: Opposed Vehicle Test...
Rigger has 8 Cops/Vehicles Following him (-16 Dice) and his verhicle is still in play (+2 Dice) for a net of -14 Dice (He Buys Successes: 7 Hits)
Cops have 8 vehicles (+16) and an opposed (-2) for +14 Dice... Cops all buy Successes: 5 Hits)
Old Lady is lost after the first pass, so it really does not matter...

Rigger chooses Engagement Range (Keeps it at Extreme Range)..

Engagement Range: Is Extreme, and this will never change due to the differences in Dice Pools from the Opposed Test...

Step 2: Initiative...
Roll initiative to fix opponents in the Initiative Order...

Step 3: Begin Chase Combat...
This is where the resolution of CHase Combat Begins and will cycle through Steps 3-7 until Chase COmbat Ends...
Note: If returning here from Step 7, Make a New Opposed Vehicle Test, then continue...

Step 4: Declare Actions/Stunts...
Vehicles use Stunts, and are either Free, Simple, or Complex...
Note: You MUST spen a Copmplex Action each Turn controlling the vehicle, or your vehicle goes uncontrolled, and a Crash Test must be taken unless you spend the Next Action regaining Control...
Note: You amy also only perform a Single Chase Stunt per Turn...

Step 5: Resolve Actions/Stunts in Initiative Order...
Rigger is attempting to bereak off... So Threshold Test is 7 Additional Vehicles +1 for a total of 8 (Easily Bought with his Dice Pool as he has -1 Threshold from Rigging)... he must do this 3 times to break off... and since the Cops will NEVER close with him based upon the parameters you started with, after about 3 minutes, he will get away scott free...

Step 6: Resolve Personal Actions over subsequent Passes of the Turn...
All Personal Actions from Passengers/Participants will occure at Extreme Range between the Cops and the Rigger (That is the engagement distance)... Any other actions may or may not have an impact on the actual Chase Combat...

Step 7: End of Chase Turn, Return to Step 3 and continue until resolution....
Repeat until Chase Combat is completed...

Now, if those cops are calling in additional cars, then the cordon will continue to tighten as additional cars are added to the chase... eventually, he will either get away (he is quicker than the response time fo the Pursuers) or he will be caught (The pursuers are close enough to throw a fairly secure net around him...

I see nothing wrong with this in the least... What do you see as broken? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

We use the rules as listed in the book... No modifications at all, and our chases have been fast, deadly and very, very exciting...

Note: Multiple Sides over 2 add an incrementing penalty of -2 per additional side (Beyond 2) to ALL SIDES...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You start out specific and then end in a sweeping generalization, so I'm trying to follow your problem. I think I know your complaint but I'll try to follow through:

Our Rigger has 30 dice on his Vehicle test. Since he's being chased by 15 vehicles that's -2*15 = -30 (I think the rules should actually say "For each vehicle still in play beyond the first on the driver's side..."). Taking a literal interpretation, though, because the Rigger has a vehicle "in play" on his side (his own) we add +2 to his DP. That least a net DP of 2. Now the Rigger's Mirage has a 140 Speed advantage, so the Rigger gets +14 (140 / 10) to his DP, now netting him 16. For the Cops they have a base DP of 8, +30 for 15 vehicles on their side, -2 for opposing vehicles, netting 36. Given the odds involved of 16 vs. 36 it's likely that the cops will close by 1 Range category each turn. When it comes down to individual maneuvers (like trying to Ram or Cut Off) the Rigger still stands a really good chance of avoiding it, but yeah, the cops will be able to keep up with him.

Now, your "logical" assumption is the "he should be able to get away" - effortlessly, you imply. Remember, that the Chase Combat rules are very abstract in nature, they are supposed to represent the results of a whole series of turns, twists, changes, corners, traffic, buildings, pedestrians, whatever. The rules do not assume that you are on a straight, wide-open, track with no obstacles and everyone is just pinning their foot to the gas in a straight line and going. To me, looking at it, if you have 15 cops working together in an urban environment chasing down one opposing vehicle, there's a pretty good chance that they will, indeed, manage to contain or redirect that vehicle to the point where at least one of them can come within close range through the coordinated use of cut-offs, looping around, herding, redirecting, or whatnot.

If you want to track current speed and exact distance on a round-by-round basis, you can use the rules under Tactical Combat. I'm not saying Chase Combat is perfect by any stretch, but I don't think it's as bad as many are saying.

The Cops do not get a Speed Bonus, because the Mirage is faster than the Cops vehicles... they in fact are on the sucking side of the Speed Issue...

[Stahlseele]

Extreme Range.
How is that defined in this case?
For example, extreme Range for Heavy Pistol or Sniper is a big huge difference.
Who can still shoot what, or do they all shoot with the extreme distance dice pool modifier even though the heavy pistols extreme distance is still well inside the close combat distance of a good sniper rifle?
And what about Magic?
When do they even care about range?
LOS means the sky is the limit . . LITERALLY!
Everything under the sky out to the horizon is fair game for a mage with good enough eyes to still see stuff that appears from the horizon . .

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Extreme Range.
How is that defined in this case?
For example, extreme Range for Heavy Pistol or Sniper is a big huge difference.
Who can still shoot what, or do they all shoot with the extreme distance dice pool modifier even though the heavy pistols extreme distance is still well inside the close combat distance of a good sniper rifle?
And what about Magic?
When do they even care about range?
LOS means the sky is the limit . . LITERALLY!
Everything under the sky out to the horizon is fair game for a mage with good enough eyes to still see stuff that appears from the horizon . .

Per the book: Extreme Range is at the Limit of Detection, and at the greatest range that engagement is still possible. This is Extreme Range for Most Ranged Attacks... GM Discretion, but I can guarantee that you using a Sniper Rifle from a Moving Vehicle, and targeting another moving Vehicle... well, lets just say that your chances are pretty slim...

Remember... Abstract...

And it is all in the book... Pages 169-170 of the SR4A...

[Jhaiisiin]

So... Chase Combat...
Step 1: Opposed Vehicle Test...
Rigger has 8 Cops/Vehicles Following him (-16 Dice) and his verhicle is still in play (+2 Dice) for a net of -14 Dice (He Buys Successes: 7 Hits)
Cops have 8 vehicles (+16) and an opposed (-2) for +14 Dice... Cops all buy Successes: 5 Hits)
Old Lady is lost after the first pass, so it really does not matter...

One quip here. The example was 15 cops, not 8. So -30 to his pool, not -16.

[UmaroVI]

Yeah... as I suspected, you don't know how the chase combat rules in the book "work." Let me go through.

Well, by the rules, the Rigger gets an additional 14 Dice to avoid the Cops (Speed Difference), and since his dice pool is now 44 to the cops 8, well, you can just take auto successes...

So, lets assume Hard Situation (Threshold 3) and Tight Terrain (Threshold +4) for a total Threshold of 7...
The Rigger has -1 Threshold for DNI COntrol)... Threshold 6, Cops are either at Threshold 6 or 7 dependant upon Rigger connections

Note: Any Crash Tests will occur with this Threshold due to circumstance, unless teh participants manage to alter the circumstance...
Also, Any Piloting Rolls will Occur with this Circumstance

Notice that the Cops do not have the requisite Dice Pools to succeed at the Proposed DIfficulty, while the Rigger Does... The Cops are just a single bad roll away from death, while the Rigger moves happily along...

So... Chase Combat...
Step 1: Opposed Vehicle Test...
Rigger has 8 Cops/Vehicles Following him (-16 Dice) and his verhicle is still in play (+2 Dice) for a net of -14 Dice (He Buys Successes: 7 Hits)
Cops have 8 vehicles (+16) and an opposed (-2) for +14 Dice... Cops all buy Successes: 5 Hits)
Old Lady is lost after the first pass, so it really does not matter...

Rigger chooses Engagement Range (Keeps it at Extreme Range)..

Engagement Range: Is Extreme, and this will never change due to the differences in Dice Pools from the Opposed Test...

Okay, this is totally wrong. The rigger's opposed vehicle test is at 30 (base) -30 (because there are 15 cops chasing him) +2 (he has 1 vehicle) + 14 (because he has an individual speed advantage), for a total of 16. The cops roll 8 (base) + 30 (15 of them) - 2 (1 opponent) for a total of 36. They will always, always win this opposed test so they get to set the range.

Also, they could, in theory, choose to Break Off with the old lady, but she's actually an asset to them (see below) so why would they do so? The only way to "leave someone behind" is the Break Off roll. So no, the old lady is going nowhere.

Step 2: Initiative...
Roll initiative to fix opponents in the Initiative Order...

This is correct.
Step 3: Begin Chase Combat...
This is where the resolution of CHase Combat Begins and will cycle through Steps 3-7 until Chase COmbat Ends...
Note: If returning here from Step 7, Make a New Opposed Vehicle Test, then continue...

Also correct.

Step 4: Declare Actions/Stunts...
Vehicles use Stunts, and are either Free, Simple, or Complex...
Note: You MUST spen a Copmplex Action each Turn controlling the vehicle, or your vehicle goes uncontrolled, and a Crash Test must be taken unless you spend the Next Action regaining Control...
Note: You amy also only perform a Single Chase Stunt per Turn...

Yes.

Step 5: Resolve Actions/Stunts in Initiative Order...
Rigger is attempting to bereak off... So Threshold Test is 7 Additional Vehicles +1 for a total of 8 (Easily Bought with his Dice Pool as he has -1 Threshold from Rigging)... he must do this 3 times to break off... and since the Cops will NEVER close with him based upon the parameters you started with, after about 3 minutes, he will get away scott free...

Nope. Read the "Multiple opponents" rules. I have no idea where you are getting this from actually. He's at +14 from additional vehicles, but actually even without that (and doesn't terrain apply?) he has no hope of breaking off. You see, multiple opponents - in addition to -2 to everyone per opponent past the third - also contains this little gem. "For every 20 points that the highest total speed rating exceeds the second highest total, apply an additional -1 dice pool modifier to all Chase Stunt Tests performed by the slower factions' vehicles." The total speed (and yes, it explicitly says to add them) of the cops is 900, the rigger has total 200, and the grandma has total 60. 900-200=700, 700/20 = 35. So the rigger and the grandma are at a total of -37 to all Chase Stunt tests. Thus, he's actually rolling 0 dice on every chase stunt he attempts. Even if he tried something easier than Break Off, he can't possibly pull it off.

Now lets look at what the cops do after a few turns when they close. They start spamming Cut Off, which is an opposed vehicle test - 6 dice (8-2) versus 0 dice (30-37). They then force the rigger to make a crash test at additional threshold equal to the number of net hits. With "Hard" manuever and "Tight" terrain, -1 for rigging, that's 6. The cops score 2 hits on average each, for 8. Luckily the rigger does get the full 30 dice against this because it's a vehicle test, not a stunt, but he still will on average blow at least one of the 15 rolls.

Step 6: Resolve Personal Actions over subsequent Passes of the Turn...
All Personal Actions from Passengers/Participants will occure at Extreme Range between the Cops and the Rigger (That is the engagement distance)... Any other actions may or may not have an impact on the actual Chase Combat...


Step 7: End of Chase Turn, Return to Step 3 and continue until resolution....
Repeat until Chase Combat is completed...

Yup.

Now, if those cops are calling in additional cars, then the cordon will continue to tighten as additional cars are added to the chase... eventually, he will either get away (he is quicker than the response time fo the Pursuers) or he will be caught (The pursuers are close enough to throw a fairly secure net around him...

I see nothing wrong with this in the least... What do you see as broken? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

We use the rules as listed in the book... No modifications at all, and our chases have been fast, deadly and very, very exciting...

Note: Multiple Sides over 2 add an incrementing penalty of -2 per additional side (Beyond 2) to ALL SIDES...

Yeah, you are not actually using the rules in the book. Not that this is BAD, mind you, because the rules in the book are completely screwed up, but you should be aware of your houserules.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah... as I suspected, you don't know how the chase combat rules in the book "work." Let me go through.

You suspected Wrong... I missed that there were 15 vehicles, saw 8 for some reason...

Okay, this is totally wrong. The rigger's opposed vehicle test is at 30 (base) -30 (because there are 15 cops chasing him) +2 (he has 1 vehicle) + 14 (because he has an individual speed advantage), for a total of 16. The cops roll 8 (base) + 30 (15 of them) - 2 (1 opponent) for a total of 36. They will always, always win this opposed test so they get to set the range.

Also, they could, in theory, choose to Break Off with the old lady, but she's actually an asset to them (see below) so why would they do so? The only way to "leave someone behind" is the Break Off roll. So no, the old lady is going nowhere.

Yes, the situation changes with 15 vehicles... as it should, which I said at the end of my example...
And no, the Old Lady is a Third opponent, and was ignored because I can see no actual reason for her to be there... a third opponent (Megacorp maybe) I could see, but a grandma... please...

Nope. Read the "Multiple opponents" rules. I have no idea where you are getting this from actually. He's at +14 from additional vehicles, but actually even without that (and doesn't terrain apply?) he has no hope of breaking off. You see, multiple opponents - in addition to -2 to everyone per opponent past the third - also contains this little gem. "For every 20 points that the highest total speed rating exceeds the second highest total, apply an additional -1 dice pool modifier to all Chase Stunt Tests performed by the slower factions' vehicles." The total speed (and yes, it explicitly says to add them) of the cops is 900, the rigger has total 200, and the grandma has total 60. 900-200=700, 700/20 = 35. So the rigger and the grandma are at a total of -37 to all Chase Stunt tests. Thus, he's actually rolling 0 dice on every chase stunt he attempts. Even if he tried something easier than Break Off, he can't possibly pull it off.

Yes, I know how Mulitple Opponents reads... but your scenario is not multiple opponents...

This rules set ONLY applies to test vs. groups of more than 2 Groups... read the rules... you must have more than 2 seperate Groups to apply the Multiple Opponents rules... the old lady washes out almost immediately (If you even actually allow her to participate, which I would not), so she would not really count... And additionally, if you run the numbers with my original premise (8 chasing vehicle, not 15), my example works... You do not worry about Multiple Opponents until you have more than 2 sides...

Now lets look at what the cops do after a few turns when they close. They start spamming Cut Off, which is an opposed vehicle test - 6 dice (8-2) versus 0 dice (30-37). They then force the rigger to make a crash test at additional threshold equal to the number of net hits. With "Hard" manuever and "Tight" terrain, -1 for rigging, that's 6. The cops score 2 hits on average each, for 8. Luckily the rigger does get the full 30 dice against this because it's a vehicle test, not a stunt, but he still will on average blow at least one of the 15 rolls.

No... at Target 7, each cop that forces a test is going to lose the Piloting Test, as they cannot obtain the requisite 7 hits for terrain and situation... Opposed Vehicle Tests... Cops with 8 Dice vs Rigger with 30 at a target of 6-7... Losers make a Crash Test... Rigger makes his with bought successes every time (Rolling will net him 10 on average each and every roll)... cops loose (with their * dice and 2 bought successes)... And since it is just Cops vs. Rigger, you only have 2 opponents, so the rules for Multiple Opponents are not in play, remember?

Read the Cut Off Stunt...
Make an opposed Test... Loser makes a Crash Test... There is no penalty to Chase Stunts here, so it is 8 Dice (Each and Every Cop) vs. 30 Dice (Rigger)... They will lose... average bought they will lose by 5 hits (2 vs 7), average rolled they will lose by 8 (2 vs 10)... this becomes a roll for each of the cops at 0 to 3 Dice (8-8 to 8-5) with a threshold of 6-7... Likely Dead Cops... Rigger escapes...

Yeah, you are not actually using the rules in the book. Not that this is BAD, mind you, because the rules in the book are completely screwed up, but you should be aware of your houserules.

Yes, I am using the rules in the book... My mistake for your situation was in the number of Vehicles used in pursuit... and even above, if your 15 pursuing vehicles manage to close and try to crash the rigger, they die... simple math says that... there better bet would be to try to disable the Rigger's vehicle rather than attempt to crash him...

And at 15 Vehicles, the Rigger is Destined to be captured as long as the cops do not do anything stupid... However, it is generally very, very rare that you will have a 15 car vehicle chase... Really, that is such an outlier case, that comparing that to something a bit more reasonable is lime me comparing the lifing power of a 3 year old to that of an olympic weightlifter... it is just not realistic in any way shape or form... The more likely scenario is that you will have 3-4 cars initially, with the possibility of more cars joining the chase the longer it goes on... With the example I used earlier (8 Cop Cars), the Rigger evaded in 3 minutes... And yes, I completely ignored the little old lady, because it would never happen...

But for S's and G's... if you do include the old lady, per your initial scenario, she was chasing the Cops, not the Rigger, so you would have 2 Chase Scenes, One for the Cops chasing the Rigger... and one for the Little old lady chasing the Cops... Multiple Opponents are for chasing a single Target, not for a chained chase... and since the Cops will outstrip the little old lady fairly quickly, she really is a moot point...

[UmaroVI]

And no, the Old Lady is a Third opponent seperate from the two others, so she imposes a -2 to EVERYONE according to the rules

Yes, the little old lady imposes a -2 to everyone's chase stunts (per the multiple opponents rules). If you are saying she should also apply that to everyone's Opposed Vehicle test, the rules are a bit vague but sure why not, it doesn't really affect anything.

This rules set ONLY applies to test vs. groups of more than 2 Groups... read the rules... you musthave more than 2 seperate Groups to apply thie Multiple Opponents rules... the old lady washes out almost immediately, so she would not really count... And additionally, if you run the numbers with my original premise (8 chasing vehicle, not 15), my example works... You do not worry about Multiple Opponents until you have more than 2 sides...

I don't understand what you are saying (EDIT: Unless this is the objection about how you should run this as two simultaneous chase scenes. See below in that case - the problem is really that things go to hell as soon as the multiple chasers thing comes up, regardless of how it does). There are 3 groups. Rigger, Cops, Old Lady. Having the Old Lady around applies an illogical penalty to the rigger. No, it doesn't make sense. Yes, it IS in the rules.

What causes her to "wash out almost immediately?" This is very important. The only way to remove someone from chase combat is to Break Off. So long as the old lady is around, the rigger cannot manage to Break Off.

And yes, I completely ignored the little old lady, because it would never happen...

But for S's and G's... if you do include the old lady, per your initial scenario, she was chasing the Cops, not the Rigger, so you would have 2 Chase Scenes, One for the Cops chasing the Rigger... and one for the Little old lady chasing the Cops... Multiple Opponents are for chasing a single Target, not for a chained chase... and since the Cops will outstrip the little old lady fairly quickly, she really is a moot point...

Well, yes, if you ignore the nonsensical parts of the rules, then everything else makes sense. I'm not sure I agree that it is only for multiple people chasing a single target rather than for chained chases, but that is a secondary issue. Replace the old lady with a second rigger on a Suzuki Mirage who is working for a third party and chasing the rigger (but not working with the cops). Boom, exact same problem.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, yes, if you ignore the nonsensical parts of the rules, then everything else makes sense. If what you mean is "an old lady chasing the cops is silly, therefore the mechanical problem that this somewhat whimsically phrased example highlights is a non-issue," replace her with a second rigger on a Suzuki Mirage who works for a third party and is chasing the cops for some appropriate and in-genre reason, and you have the same problem again.

The nonsensical part was your inclusion of the old lady at all...

And the 3rd Party Rigger makes sense... the question is who catches him first? Probably the cops in your scenario...

Also, by the time that you have 15 cars (Your scenario), your rigger would have long ago lost the initial cars chasing him... I mean Really... Since when do you see an immediate 15 car response withint the Extreme Range of the Chase Target? Wait, I know, Never... It was a purposeful setup to demonstrate something that you think is broken by stacking the deck until it broke...

Reasonable setups tend to work much better in my opinion, and with reasonable setups, the typical chase will have between 2-4 cars/vehicles initially chasing, with more POSSIBLY joining in... But, if you can manage to cross several Extraterritoriality points, you will likely lose those chasing you (and may pick up others)... Chase combat works wonderfully... and yes, if you manage to acquire 15 following vehicles before you can break off, then you will be caught... what is wrong with that?

We have run multiple Party Chase Scenes with up to 4 active Groups... they work just fine... of course, if you stack the deck, the n you get stacked results... if you use an organic approach, it plays just fine...

[KarmaInferno]

Wow, rules break when you throw extreme corner cases at them!

I am astonished!




-karma

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wow, rules break when you throw extreme corner cases at them!

I am astonished!

-karma

Yeah... Like that isn't obvious... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)
But apparently, Some GM's like to Play an adversarial game... In that case, no one wins... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[UmaroVI]

Okay, if your standard is just "is likely to come up in a game," how about this one. I suppose the advantage of numbers over speed is at least defensible since the rules are so abstract, but the way multiple chasers work really, really is not. Let me construct an example that is "reasonable" and demonstrates this.

Let's look at what happens if there are 4 cops, which you state is a reasonable number, each with 8 dice to driving, in Chrysler-Nissan Patrol-1s (the patrol car listed in the book). They are pursuing a rigger in a Eurocar Westwind 3k. Let's assume he's got a somewhat more reasonable pool of 15 dice. In case 1, the cops are chasing this rigger. In case 2, only 3 cops are chasing this rigger, but there's a seperate dude chasing the rigger with stats identical to a cop, not working with the cops, and pursuing the rigger independently. In both cases the number and quality of pursuers is the same, just in Case 2, one of the pursuers is in their own faction and doing their own thing.

In case 1, the opposed vehicle tests are going to be 8+8-2 = 14 (cops) and 15-8+2+6 = 19 (rigger). So, it is reasonable that the rigger will usually win the opposed vehicle test at the start. A third faction doesn't change this much - the rigger is still likely to win. This is largely unrelated to the problem.

Now, what do people do? In Case 1, the rigger is going to try to get away by making Break Off checks. He has a pool of 15 dice and -1 to threshold, so it's realistic for him to pull off 3 in a row. It might take more than one round of tries due to +3 Threshold from 3 extra pursuers but it is totally believable that he'll get away after a tense chase scene.

In Case 2, suddenly things are totally different and much worse for the rigger - despite the fact that he has the same number and type of pursuers, and they're now no longer working together! Everyone is getting a -2 to stunt tests, but everyone except for the cops is now sucking on a -15 to all stunt tests, leaving the rigger with no dice to actually roll. Granted, the threshold for break away dropped by one, but him and his no dice aren't going to care. The last pursuer (the guy in the patrol car not working with the cops) is also unable to ever make any stunt tests. The cops are the only people who have any hope of making stunt tests, since they're the only ones without the -15. Granted, with only 6 dice, they're not really going to pull off anything besides Cut Off but sooner or later that will work since nobody can do much about it.

Note that because the only people who are actually able to make stunt checks successfully are the cops, nobody is leaving this chase scene (unless the second pursuer gets bored and goes home or something) so it will remain multiple opponents until the rigger finally crashes.

TL;DR: It is easier to get away from 4 cops than it is to get away from 3 cops, and one dude who is exactly as good at driving and in the same car as a cop, but not actually working with the cops.

[Cain]

In case you hadn't noticed, TJ has a bad habit of not acknowledging that he uses house rules to make his game more fun. Personally I don't see what the problem is, but he does ignore/interpret as many rules as the rest of us, which is how he makes Chase Combat work.


Here's a true story for you. This was under the 4.0 rules, but I'll be sure to discuss the differences. We were in a souped-up racecar, with a Speed of 300. We were being chased by a go-gang, on various motorcycles; let's assume a top speed of 120. Neither of us had a rigger, so it came down to opposed rolls. Even though we beat most of the gangers, one or two of them would roll enough successes to beat our total, keeping them in Close range even though we were going twice as fast as they would. (SR4.5 grants a DP penalty to the slower vehicles, but the fact that they were making 12 rolls to our 1 still shifts the odds in their favor.) My mage called in her bound Force 10 spirit, and had it use the Movement power on our vehicle.

3000 meters/turn = 3600 KPH = Mach 3.8. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

Now, the GM quite correctly decided to use handwavium, and simply declared that we escaped. But what would have happened if we had used the rules?

Under 4.0, the others would not have suffered a speed penalty. If anything, *we* would have been the ones suffering a massive penalty. We would still be facing the same opposed tests, and they'd still be winning. Under 4.5, we'd both be suffering from a speed penalty, so the net could be the same. Even if we did manage to push their dice pool to 0, and they didn't Longshot, it would take a minimum of five minutes to escape. That's one turn going from Short to Medium, another to go from Medium to Long, and then three turns doing Break Off tests. And even assuming it was an Easy test to begin with, we'd have a minimum Threshold of 12 each turn to Break Off. It might take a lot longer, even though we're outpacing fighter aircraft and they're only on motorcycles.

See how silly this gets? And that's just one example. But the fact is, unless you like handwaving combat, the rules do not work as advertised.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Okay, if your standard is just "is likely to come up in a game," how about this one. I suppose the advantage of numbers over speed is at least defensible since the rules are so abstract, but the way multiple chasers work really, really is not. Let me construct an example that is "reasonable" and demonstrates this.

Let's look at what happens if there are 4 cops, which you state is a reasonable number, each with 8 dice to driving, in Chrysler-Nissan Patrol-1s (the patrol car listed in the book). They are pursuing a rigger in a Eurocar Westwind 3k. Let's assume he's got a somewhat more reasonable pool of 15 dice. In case 1, the cops are chasing this rigger. In case 2, only 3 cops are chasing this rigger, but there's a seperate dude chasing the rigger with stats identical to a cop, not working with the cops, and pursuing the rigger independently. In both cases the number and quality of pursuers is the same, just in Case 2, one of the pursuers is in their own faction and doing their own thing.

In case 1, the opposed vehicle tests are going to be 8+8-2 = 14 (cops) and 15-8+2+6 = 19 (rigger). So, it is reasonable that the rigger will usually win the opposed vehicle test at the start. A third faction doesn't change this much - the rigger is still likely to win. This is largely unrelated to the problem.

Now, what do people do? In Case 1, the rigger is going to try to get away by making Break Off checks. He has a pool of 15 dice and -1 to threshold, so it's realistic for him to pull off 3 in a row. It might take more than one round of tries due to +3 Threshold from 3 extra pursuers but it is totally believable that he'll get away after a tense chase scene.

In Case 2, suddenly things are totally different and much worse for the rigger - despite the fact that he has the same number and type of pursuers, and they're now no longer working together! Everyone is getting a -2 to stunt tests, but everyone except for the cops is now sucking on a -15 to all stunt tests, leaving the rigger with no dice to actually roll. Granted, the threshold for break away dropped by one, but him and his no dice aren't going to care. The last pursuer (the guy in the patrol car not working with the cops) is also unable to ever make any stunt tests. The cops are the only people who have any hope of making stunt tests, since they're the only ones without the -15. Granted, with only 6 dice, they're not really going to pull off anything besides Cut Off but sooner or later that will work since nobody can do much about it.

Note that because the only people who are actually able to make stunt checks successfully are the cops, nobody is leaving this chase scene (unless the second pursuer gets bored and goes home or something) so it will remain multiple opponents until the rigger finally crashes.

TL;DR: It is easier to get away from 4 cops than it is to get away from 3 cops, and one dude who is exactly as good at driving and in the same car as a cop, but not actually working with the cops.

You are right... No one is leaving the chase scene (Scenario 2) until you reach a straight away with significant stretch, and then the incrementing distance of the Eurocar Westwind becomes a significant factor... at that point, the EW will outpace the CNP by Speed 60 each and every turn, eventually extending out and losing the cops... Once you are in a situation that the faster car will outstrip the pursuers, you are no longer in chase combat...

But I will bite here... Have you ever witnessed a Police Chase where the cops are just sedately pursuing the target for miles and miles on end until the target panics or does something completely stupid? I've seen this on more than one ocassion... In the game, this creates a crazy situation, and I agree with you on that, but there it is... And remember, the benefit of the Multiple opponents and multiple vehicle scenario is that it reduces Stunt Dice Pools... However, there is nothing that says that I Must perform a Stunt in the Turn... the only things that I need to do are Control my Vehicle (Which is not a Stunt) and make an opposed Positioning Test, which is also not a stunt. This particular scenrio you dewcribe means that I will be doing other things to give me an advantage in the execution of my escape.

Here is what I would do if I were the Rigger... I would get on the horn and call up some of my street buddies to start setting up situation ahead of my course to cause difficulties to the Cops/Other bloke until the situation changes... Easily done and is somewhat realistic, assuming that you have access to street budies like a Gang or other group. Or I could activate a Smoke Cystem to give penalties to the Opponents and force a Crash Est upon them... or Drop a Raod Strip (Spike or Zapper) to force the same thing... If not, then it will be a long chase unless something else changes the situation... Not at all unrealistic in the scope of the game...

Yes, Multiple Opponents can get crazy, especailly when there are multiple opponents with multiple vehicles. But here is the thing... you generally do not start out with Multiple Opponents in a Chase Scene. In fact, I would classify that as quite rare... you generally develop multiple opponents over the course of the chase if you are careless in your escape. And again, all of these Multiple opponents may or may not be chasing you... which is really what you have to look out for... if you genusinely have multiple opponents, all with multiple vehicles, chasing a singular vehicle, the Singular vehicle will eventually lose. That is just how it works... and mimics reality quite well...

And Honestly, at that point, I take it to the street outside of the vehicle... it is so much easier to hide a person than it is a vehicle... tailor your response to the situation based on what is more feasible...

In the end, Chase Combat is an abstraction to make the scene tense and interesting. If you have already decided that you are going to capture the characters, why bother with a chase scene? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Neurosis]

3000 meters/turn = 3600 KPH = Mach 3.8. eek.gif

Now, the GM quite correctly decided to use handwavium, and simply declared that we escaped. But what would have happened if we had used the rules?

Wouldn't you like...crash into a building and explode? I don't mean in terms of good dramatic structure or a fun game, I mean "realistically"? Like especially without a Rigger/Vehicle Specialist how could you possibly control the vehicle at that speed?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wouldn't you like...crash into a building and explode? I don't mean in terms of good dramatic structure or a fun game, I mean "realistically"? Like especially without a Rigger/Vehicle Specialist how could you possibly control the vehicle at that speed?

You really could not control something going that fast on the ground... by the time you saw a problem developing, you are already dead...
This also applies to flight at low altitudes as well... by the time you perceiveit, it is too late... it only works at very high altitudes...

At our table, you would die a horrible, fiery death...

[Yerameyahu]

Movement is magic.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Movement is magic.

So what... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Movement on the Vehicle does not magically increase your reaction time or your perceptive capabilities...

BIG, Fiery Death... at the rate of speeds mentioned previously... which you will have a hard time getting to in SR4A...

[Yerameyahu]

So, it's magic. It Just Works™. This has always been the explanation for Movement.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So, it's magic. It Just Works™. This has always been the explanation for Movement.

I am not complaining about the Movement Power...
Of course it works, your vehicle goes however many thousands of KPH... whatever... Yay for you (Generic You there)!!!
Just because your vehicle goes faster does not mean that you will not have issues with that speed however... No where does it say that you are immune to the increase in the movement speed...

You will still have to react to the new speed at which you find yourself, and you will fail at those crazy speeds... Movement is a great power to have, but it is a detriment if you find yourself unable to compensate for the new spoeed at which you find yourself... I think that this is why they modified the ability in SR4A... because it was ludicrous before the modification...

and Again.... BOOM !!!!... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

It's not a speed power. It's a travel power. It's magic, so it's safe. The exact numbers are crazy, but they don't matter that much. You get from point A to B, to C, etc. In less time.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's not a speed power. It's a travel power. It's magic, so it's safe. The exact numbers are crazy, but they don't matter that much. You get from point A to B, to C, etc. In less time.

Sorry, I disagree here... it is Directly a Speed Increasing Power... You can, of course, travel with it, but is does not remove you from the time stream... nor does it negate physics... all the power does is allow you to increase your speed...that is it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Muspellsheimr]

Also, I consider the -1 DP for Extended Tests an optional rule that my games don't opt for. Otherwise, nearly everything cool or useful is impossible (climbing and Watcher Search tests, I'm looking at you).

Fixed that for you.

The downward spiral Extended Tests is an optional rule that should be used situationally by the GM, though. He should judge which tests warrant it, rather than either always/never using it.

In Shadowrun 4 Anniversary, it is an Optional rule, that if I remember correctly, you either "use or don't use", not test-by-test as you say.
In the Anniversary update document, as well as Missions, it is a Mandatory rule, that you use.


Ultimately, while there should be a limiter on how many rolls one is capable of making on an Extended test, the method they used is absolute shit. I suggest the following:

[ Spoiler ]

The maximum number of rolls a character may make on an Extended Test is equal to their Attribute + Skill. This limitation only applies to skill-based tests.

Climbing is no longer an Extended Test. Instead, it is a Complex Action that lets you travel X meters per Hit rolled.

Agreed. For some reason I thought it was the core rule that was how it worked now.

See Above.