I know for one spirits can't by RAW leave the astral. What other parts of RAW are clearly not RAI or just don't even work and why? Enlighten me Dumpshock and alos maybe we could get some errata(Fat chance I know but it's worth a try). Lets not go for rule that are ambiguous but do actually work by RAW however you read it.

This is pretty bone-headed, but I heard somewhere that "Grunts can't talk because they have no language skills". I think that's gibberish, and I don't consider it to be RAW, RAI, or a rule at all. It's too nonsensical and stupid. But it is something I've heard.

I'm sure that the deadliness of mid 21st century car crashes will be noted.

Stick N Shock.

Too broad in its description and better off left out of your game. It will save you headache as a GM.

Psh, Darkeus, that's obviously not what the OP asked for.

I don't know car crashes are pretty deadly right now?

High speed car crashes are pretty dangerous, yes. But in SR4.5, crashing at something like 25 mph will result in instant splatter for all occupants, no matter what protective measures the car has.

Really? Can you cite examples. I have heard of this problem but not seen it demonstrated.

Spirits are vulnerable to toxin. They can do combat drugs too.

Pixies get +1 reach if they take the Elongated Limbs metagenetic quality.

OK. I don't have a 4.5 rulebook handy, so I can't provide any page references. But basically, the problem is this: any vehicle that crashes rams itself, and does full damage to its passengers.

So, let's put our family in a Mercury Comet, going along at 65 meters/turn, or a sedate 48 miles per hour. Suddenly, a squirrel jumps in the way, and the car crashes. The passengers now have to absorb a base 20P damage, instantly killing anything but a maxed-out troll.

See the problem?

Heck, pixies. They're smaller than gnomes but have more health and the same reach as humans and elves. This is a 1.47 foot tall creature that can miraculously strike people two to three times its total size away from itself.

Also - (cross)bows cannot Fire, as that action is reserved for firearms. I think I heard that 4A fixed that, but I don't have a copy to double check.

I'll get to thinking on more.

Nope, AFAIK 4.5 didn't fix that. I think it's page 147 on the pdf, but my copy is acting up.

A minor point, but AIs can have SINner, but they're not allowed to have Day Job or In Debt. So they're allowed to exist in a given society, but not able to contribute at all? In fact, they'd be a drain on society, as their Home Node requires a lot of upkeep (equivalent to a lifestyle), and on top of that, they can be addicted to things.

How does that work? They can take Addiction. What? Synthahol? Sex? What would they be addicted to, and how would they satisfy that addiction? The best answer I have is Addiction (BTL) in the form of studying the code for it since they don't have the nervous system to actually interpret it.

I don't see the problem. Use 'Throw Weapon' or 'Use Simple Object'.

If you "Throw Weapon" then you'd be using the arrow or bolt as an improvised weapon, not at the listed damage.

"Use Simple Action" isn't a bad one though.

I dunno. Projectile Weapons *are* Throwing Weapons, and vice versa. Check the category listings. (There's a stupid rule right there. )

No. Projectile weapons and Throwing weapons get lumped together in gear listing and ranges for Combat Rules, but that's not the same as "they are the same." That's why there are two different skills for using them. The operative word that distinguishes this is "and," as in, "Projectiles and throwing weapons."

They're also together in the rules, as I said. Blades and Clubs are different skills, but they're still both Melee.

According to the vehicle customization/expanded vehicle rules in Arsenal, if they've got seat belts on and allow all the vehicle's standard crash protection (airbags, etc) features to work (rather than going out of their way to disable them, like apparently some Shadowrunners, somewhere, might foolishly do)...they take no damage. Otherwise, they take the same damage as the vehicle, resisted by Body and 1/2 Impact (like you posted).

To me the bigger issue is that it's resolved as a ram attack -- so that the more Body your vehicle has, the more damage you take (by quite a bit). Something's a little off when you're better off crashing at 100+ kmh on your motorcycle than in the back of a riot control vehicle.

Indeed. The ramming rules in general are a big mess, but at least there are seatbelts.

So AIs are essentially welfare cheats?

One rule that seems to be a bit contradictory is... most spells require LOS, but since Astral Perception technically isn't 'sight' but some sort of magical 'extra sense' Mages shouldn't be able to cast spells while using Astral Perception/Projection that require LOS. Of course the RAW describe doing just that, which is why there is a bit of contradiction. At least IMO, YMMV.

As they're written now. I'm resisting comparing them to a certain group that exists today.

Now I'm going to have to be the one asking for a page reference. All I could find in the customization section was an advanced passenger protection system, that adds 1-6 dice to the test to soak damage. Did I miss it?

Page 103 "SAFETY SYSTEMS AND CRASHING"(also seriuosly it took me 30s to find that and i havent even read it ever before.)

Apparently, after re-re-re-reading the Radio Signal Scanner, it breaks the rules horribly.

Normally to detect a wireless signal, you need to roll Electronic Warfare + Scan (Variable, 1 Combat Turn), but the Radio Signal Scanner says it can do those functions but does not list that it functions as a Scan program - only as a Sniffer program. So either it can't detect signals at all, should be listed as being a Scan and Sniffer equal to its rating, or it automatically detects all wireless signals around it, including hidden ones.

EDIT: Also, it apparently also functions as a Track program, since it can automatically pinpoint the origin of the wireless signals. For 150 , this R6 Radio Super Scanner is a must.

What welfare?

Sorry, but that rule directly contradicts the rules in the core book. According to the section on Attacks against Passengers, a ram attack hurts the passengers, and a crash is just a ram against the vehicle itself.

Pixies, gnomes, dwarves and other short-legged characters get a +1 Reach bonus with the kick martial art maneuver.

Scatter Rules for Grenades and Missles and the such . .
Niicee . . you had 4 net hits on your shooting stuff test..
That means *rolls 4d6* hmm 3+4+5+2= yep, you miss by 10 meters!
And of course, the scatter diagram which allows the missle/grenade to bounce back into the shooters direction too. . .

Chase Combat doesn't work, like, at all. It especially doesn't work when you have more than two sides.

Emotitoys.

I have never seen a GM using Chase Combat.

And I saw GMs that demanded extended Climbing(100) tests to climb a 100 meter high oil platform

well, without dicepool reduction and with a 1 to 5 min interval, it still make sence somehow

More more I read this thread, the more I facepalm and go, "no, they're kidding....Please?"
-Tir.

sad but all true.

SR4 -SR4A vehicules rules are such a joke that I will just use my CarWars edition for all and every vehicular combat, quick simple and working rules

My personal Favorite is that my Troll has just as much body as an average car.
And as much armor as a car can max out at. (and when I get access to milspec, I'll have more armor than a car can possibly have)

That's.. silly

That is a rules interpretation from Toturi... his point is that NPC's do not have any Knowledge Skills as Written, so they get none... It is a little crazy, but apparently it works for him...

"Oook, Oook"

Works phenomenally for us, and we have used it extensively... even with multiple sides involved...

Rofl, I just noticed almost all the NPCs are naked except for an armor vest!

i have to ask. In you games can a crossbows be shot, as in used, not as in shot-at? Or, is every crossbow in SR have the trigger welded fast upon creation?

Unless they changed it, cars also have a *2 damage reduction for benig a vehicle, or so I thought.

The problem is this



Neither Use Simple Nor Use Complex Objects have any information about bows or crossbows.

Basically nowhere does it tell you what action is required to fire a bow, or a crossbow.

Nope, although Vehicles have Hardened Armor, instead of regular armor. So, If your DV < Armor Rating then Damage = 0

These threads are amusing at first then...not, I guess.

This is what happens when people think everything needs to be explained in exacting detail

and

When a game has forty billion designers attached to it all communicating with cans and string

Dartguns in the core book: a gun with AP -2 whose text says it ignores armor cannot be right. The implanted dartguns in Augmentation use fixed rules, but they do not officially errate the core book ones.

The 2 different rulesets for toxins and drugs, with no resistance and speed for drugs. Slab is the worst offender since it makes it the best toxin in the game just for not being listed as a toxin.

What about the Archery description?

And that's what they changed about vehicles. Makes'um all but immune to small-arms fire when done proper.

this is just me, but i always go with the subject-specific modules as the more authoritative rule set in any system.

I'm not sure how you can have failed to notice the glaring problems with it - presumably your GM has houseruled the chase combat rules into something sane. Here's a good example of one of the ways in which they do not function.

A really badass rigger (rolling 30 dice on vehicle tests) on a Suzuki Mirage racing bike (Speed 200) is being chased by the cops - 15 cops (8 dice on vehicle tests) on Dodge Scoots (Speed 60). However, an angry old lady (3 dice on vehicle tests) is following the cops because they cut her off in traffic, and wants to give them a talking to. She's also riding on a Dodge Scoots.

The rigger starts at extreme range. He knows he can't take 15 cops on in a fair fight so he just wants to get away. Logically, he should be able to get away - his bike is over three times faster than anybody else's vehicle, and he's practically a superhumanly good driver. But he can't, in fact, he's going to get run off the road in short order because the rules are silly. Of course, were the old lady not angrily chasing the cops, things would be (even more illogically) completely different. It would still be utterly impossible for the rigger to actually get away, but at least the cops wouldn't be able to run him off the road either.

Actually, since you're still subject to Stun and vehicles are not, it makes you much more vulnerable.