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Fortinbras
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Apr 22 2011, 04:42 PM) *
I take "broken" to mean "does not work as written". Most broken rules can be fixed with a little common sense, but that doesn't mean the rule isn't broken. I will say that I do not include rules that work, but I don't like, in this category.

See, when I hear people say "the Shadowrun rules are broken", all I can think is to say "Fine. If Shadowrun is unplayable, then don't play it. Write up your own system, publish it and let people spend time picking it apart and tell you how it's broken."
It's just a term that get's under my skin. Like when people use the word "literally" wrong.
It caught on because it's inflammatory, but that's the same thing I don't like about it. Besides, most people on Dumpshock claim that every single aspect of the game is "broken" in some way. The Matrix rules are broken, the Combat rules are broken, the Magic rules are broken, the Falling rules are broken...etc.
For such a broken and unplayable system, people here sure do play it a lot.
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Apr 22 2011, 04:42 PM) *
Yes, ideally rules should be linked to the game world, but rules should ALSO work by themselves.

Rules need to work in and of themselves, even before you apply any external world or common sense factors.

I agree completely. I'm not saying rules don't need to work as stand alones because they can be fixed. That's lazy writing. I'm saying that a rule which has no connection to world is equally wrong. I think you're saying that, too.
However, some folks fixing of rules takes them so into the realm of grognard capture in trying to make all the rules balanced and even, that they forget the rules represent a real thing. This turns role playing games into board games.
But, yes. A rule that doesn't work is a rule that doesn't work. Forcing your audience to fix it for you is a haphazard attempt at best.
longbowrocks
Not necessarily broken, but I did find a typo in Augmentation page 114:
"Etchers
Etchers are used to temporarily or permanemtly inscribe a
metallic pattern on the subject’s bones or cartilages."
Had an 'm' instead of an 'n'. Maybe they'll fix it if they release arrata for that book.
Stahlseele
Hmm, etchers would make the Bone Cage a useable thing . .
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 22 2011, 03:34 PM) *
Hmm, etchers would make the Bone Cage a useable thing . .

I searched all the likely books, but no dice. what/where is the bone cage?
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Apr 22 2011, 05:22 PM) *
Had an 'm' instead of an 'n'. Maybe they'll fix it if they release arrata for that book.


This amuses me.





-k
longbowrocks
Oh god I didn't. Maybe I should wait till later to post more. At the moment I'm seeing double out of my left eye and my right eye hurts like a frequency of 16k. Sleeping awkwardly does that.
longbowrocks
Ok. Gave myself a break.

Hella broken rule here:
Has anyone else noticed that astral hazing is a NEGATIVE quality?
I would consider it a positive quality even if the GM forced me to take uncouth with it, and killed my character every other meet.
Yerameyahu
Yup. It has pretty major downsides, but can be useful. If you're getting more benefit from it than penalties, the GM should address that issue. It's a general rule.
longbowrocks
If my GM would let us use metagenetics, I would just take astral hazing as a freebie. Not a negative since it's so awesome, but not a positive since he'd find a way to make it feel like a negative.
Yerameyahu
It's really only awesome in these anti-mage scenarios. The practical consequences of living like that would be very bad.
longbowrocks
I don't see any direct consequences. Only astrally perceiving characters can detect my aura right?

It doesn't even say that I'm naturally depressed, even though the haze feeds off my darker emotions.

I guess I could take the vindictive negative quality to go with this, and play a depressed/suicidal character.
team mate:"what are you doing?"
me:"I've been talking to this tree. It hates me."

team mate:"so, does anyone have some ideas for how to get the data?"
me:"I'd make a suggestion, but you wouldn't listen. No one ever does."

me:"I've calculated our chances of survival, but I think I'm the only one who'll be pleased."

me:"Mediocrity is like a lollipop to me. I licked once and sucked forever."

me:"I'm more useless than boobs on a nun."
Yerameyahu
You're not being very creative. Magic is a normal, if rare, aspect of the Sixth World. You're the equivalent of walking radioactive waste, a human car alarm that never turns off, and a powerful radio jammer. No, it's not crippling, and you do gain some measure of protection, but it's like fending off a mugger by rubbing yourself with dog crap… you just can never take a shower. smile.gif (I swear I read about that once.)
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 22 2011, 08:19 PM) *
You're not being very creative.

In my interpretation of the quality, or in my execution of roleplaying a depressed character? There's little in this world that is more creative than humor. In fact, the only thing I can think of that trumps humor is creation itself.

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 22 2011, 08:19 PM) *
You're the equivalent of walking radioactive waste, a human car alarm that never turns off, and a powerful radio jammer.

But only to astrally perceiving characters right?
Yerameyahu
Of course. That's slightly better than being deafening to only hearing characters, I guess. smile.gif Astral security is a pretty standard thing, and you're a sore thumb. As a middling SURGE quality, it's pretty rare, so you're conspicuous *and* one of only a few. If you were hoping to have healing, buffing, etc., you're pretty well out of luck. So, yes, it's in some ways less bad than reeking of rotten eggs all the time, or emitting blinding light. It's still pretty bad.
Sephiroth
You'll also instill a small but unsettling feeling in those around you, even mundanes, if the letter to Celedyr in Augmentation's CZ fluff is to be believed (though not as much as Nasty Vibe; however, Nasty Vibe would be a very appropriate choice to accompany Astral Hazing).

Which is to say nothing of what will happen when your runner goes out for a night on the town and tries to party someplace where there's also a couple wagemages or other Awakened bystanders.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Apr 22 2011, 08:45 PM) *
You'll also instill a small but unsettling feeling in those around you, even mundanes, if the letter to Celedyr in Augmentation's CZ fluff is to be believed (though not as much as Nasty Vibe; however, Nasty Vibe would be a very appropriate choice to accompany Astral Hazing).

Which is to say nothing of what will happen when your runner goes out for a night on the town and tries to party someplace where there's also a couple wagemages or other Awakened bystanders.

This sounds about right. Astral hazing has that emotion thing about it, so I imagine mundanes could feel a slight chill as well.

The thing is, I can see this ability making me sympathetic towards mages if I were born with it, but I' d prefer to play a character who dislikes mages, even hunts them (aside from mages in my party). I just don't see how making the average mage effectively mundane would make me hate them.

I'm also curious how Llofwyr would have reacted to me in that last session if I had astral hazing.
Yerameyahu
I dunno what this has to do with anything. Hate, love, the point is that you're radioactive. smile.gif And what's this 'mages in my party' nonsense? You won't be running with anyone awakened, unless your Essence is sub-1 and they're careful about where they stand.

… why would you ever be in the presence of Mr. S-K? biggrin.gif
Udoshi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 14 2010, 07:34 AM) *
All attacks do net hits damage. Yes, they have a base as well.


Speaking of broken rules, explosive weapons don't do net hits to damage anymore.

That is, they broke everything with the Anniversary scatter rules. (they suck use 4th's)

longbowrocks
I'll be careful about where I stand. Besides, the other guys in our group don't know enough about the game to know what astral hazing entails, aside from the modifier. Heck, our GM had to explain to our mage last run, that he should be rolling body + armor when he gets hit.

As for S-K. They offered us more benefits if we came under their wing, and we accepted. Our GM is generally pretty good about keeping characters that should not be statted out of sight, but this run he played with something new by having us meet Llofwyr personally. Unfortunately, he gave the impression that he would resort to plot excuse rather than actual combat if I pulled the "negative quality: combat monster" card.
Yerameyahu
That's pretty far out of context, but yes, it's wrong regarding explosives. I meant stabbing and shooting, and I didn't think it'd be necessary to spell it out. I'll be more careful. wink.gif I do think that the scatter rules (when they work) constitutes 'net hits to damage' for explosives, but it's obviously not the same as shooting and stabbing.

longbowrocks, I don't think the rules care about how stupid the *players* are (which, if they don't realize what BC 4 does to them, is 'very'). biggrin.gif And the great dragon would end you, period. It's the law.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 22 2011, 09:27 PM) *
longbowrocks, I don't think the rules care about how stupid the *players* are (which, if they don't realize what BC 4 does to them, is 'very').

Must count double for me since I didn't realize until just now that it sounded like I was calling my team stupid.
I meant that they... Dabble. For most of the characters, we kind of had a big party where the player sat in front of the computer for half an hour choosing interesting looking items from lists in SR4chargen (this one?) while our GM made suggestions that they listened to, and I made suggestions that they ignored.
I actually had a similar experience, which led to my first rendition of the bow troll. The next day I glanced through the core book, quite literally said "wtf is this?!", and set about making a proper bow troll.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 22 2011, 09:27 PM) *
And the great dragon would end you, period. It's the law.

The law eh?
*Whew*, good thing I'm a shadowrunner! grinbig.gif
Udoshi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 22 2011, 09:27 PM) *
That's pretty far out of context, but yes, it's wrong regarding explosives. I meant stabbing and shooting, and I didn't think it'd be necessary to spell it out. I do think that the scatter rules (when they work) constitutes 'net hits to damage' for explosives, but it's obviously not the same as shooting and stabbing.


No, no, thats the thing I was trying to point out. Net hits for attacks that scatter now ONLY reduce scatter.

Previously, in 4th edition, they reduced scatter to 0, and THEN excess hits improve the damage.

In Anniversary, they reduce the vastly increased scatter to 0, and then extra hits do jack squat. This means that after a certain point in vehicle armor, a high explosive grenade landing next to a car will absolutely not be able to damage it. Without net hits to damage, a high enough armor will just cause it to *bonk* off.

High explosive grenades are DV10 AP-2, so anything with armor 12 just completely ignores them, and with massive scatter, anything with 10 or 11 is probably okay due to damage falloff. Funnily enough, this also means that most of the Tanks printed in War and Milspectech just laugh off anti-vehicle missiles. They literally don't have enough AP or DV to harm them.

I mean, you'd -expect- a grenade to wreck a vehicle or drone, but nope. Doesn't work like that anymore.

Hence my suggestion to just use the previous editions scatter rules.

Sorry for the tangent, hope that explains stuff.

longbowrocks
Don't rockets have 3XDV against... Something? and grenades get 2X?
I thought it was barriers, but with this, I'm starting to suspect it's vehicles too. Let me check.
Yerameyahu
I wasn't aware that they *ever* increased explosive damage. I only meant that reducing scatter (to a min of 0) is effectively (that is, 'in a roundabout kinda way') increasing DV (because it's not reduced by blast distance). smile.gif

You honestly don't have to worry about this, because scatter is so high in SR4A that you won't get to 0 anyway. (Heh, I exaggerate, because Airburst Link is stupid-good.) We did just have a big discussion last month about rockets being useless… must've been a different thread.

Definitely not vehicles. Explosives do 2x to barriers. You've *gotta* go read the rules, longbowrocks. biggrin.gif
longbowrocks
Yep. Read the rules and found it. If anyone takes something away from this, it's to trust their first guess and not their second.
explosives 2X
AV rockets/missiles 3X

Only against barriers, not vehicles.

Grenades should count as explosives since there's no other entry in the table for them.

And last but not least, airburst is pretty dang good, but the reduction to 1d6 scatter was an error and has been changed to 2d6.

Pretty good considering 8 weeks since I first heard of shadowrun, 4 weeks of dumpshock (I didn't use my account for 3 weeks since I had no privileges), and never having used any sort of explosive in-game before.
James McMurray
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Apr 23 2011, 12:12 AM) *
And last but not least, airburst is pretty dang good, but the reduction to 1d6 scatter was an error and has been changed to 2d6.


Where was this?
longbowrocks
In the SR4A core book, page 322 for either pre or post errata.
longbowrocks
or here in the scatter table.
http://www.shadowrun4.com/wp-content/uploa...R4A_changes.pdf
Ascalaphus
I guess Hazing is a NQ of the "rope to hang yourself with" kind.
- You screw over awakened PCs in the group.
- Attract a lot of negative attention from anyone Awakened - and they tend to have friends with guns.
- Sirens go off whenever you get near a Ward.
- NPC mages start giving orders like "Geek the Haze first!"
- Stay anywhere for too long and pro-Awakened people want to form a lynch mob to get rid of you, because you mess up the neighborhood manasphere.

Altogether I think it's one of the more interesting qualities they've come up with.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Apr 23 2011, 06:11 AM) *
I guess Hazing is a NQ of the "rope to hang yourself with" kind.
- You screw over awakened PCs in the group.
- Attract a lot of negative attention from anyone Awakened - and they tend to have friends with guns.
- Sirens go off whenever you get near a Ward.
- NPC mages start giving orders like "Geek the Haze first!"
- Stay anywhere for too long and pro-Awakened people want to form a lynch mob to get rid of you, because you mess up the neighborhood manasphere.

Altogether I think it's one of the more interesting qualities they've come up with.

Except for the first one, those all seem to involve me killing mages. Hell yes.
Might not work out too well with my stealth character though.
Ascalaphus
Astral hazing basically means you can't sneak around magic - you set off all the alarms. And any powerful mage will have mundane allies/bodyguards/employers to deal with you.

I guess you're spoiling for a fight, but in general it's good for a shadowrunner to be inconspicuous.
longbowrocks
I see. I'll keep that in mind.
In terms of purely destroying mages though, it might be a nice thing to take with arcane arrester. That would be amazing.
Now I want to see if I can get our GM to house rule that arcane arrester is applied before BC. wink.gif
Yerameyahu
... yes. I said at the very beginning, it's good for a specialized anti-mage. If you actually want to play that, there you go.
longbowrocks
The core book has this to say about the magician quality:
QUOTE
Though this quality is inexpensive, gamemasters should be careful
not to allow it to be abused. It should only be taken for characters that
are intended to be played as magicians.

May I just say that I don't think I would take the magician quality to be a technomancer, or more accurately, someone who isn't a mage?
It is quite literally impossible to abuse this quality if you don't use the magic it grants you (that is to say "play your character as a magician").

"a person who practises magic" <-> mage <-> magician

In other words, was it really necessary to devote an entire paragraph to something that can never happen?
Sephiroth
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Apr 23 2011, 08:50 PM) *
The core book has this to say about the magician quality:

May I just say that I don't think I would take the magician quality to be a technomancer, or more accurately, someone who isn't a mage?
It is quite literally impossible to abuse this quality if you don't use the magic it grants you (that is to say "play your character as a magician").

"a person who practises magic" <-> mage <-> magician

In other words, was it really necessary to devote an entire paragraph to something that can never happen?

Yes. I think you're missing the point. The paragraph is not talking about semantics and definitions of a "magician." It is advising that one should only take the magician quality if the player is serious about a magician-based character concept - NOT if they only want to take the quality to powergame.
longbowrocks
So, they're basically saying that if a powergamer took the magician quality, he'd be able to do way too much with it, and end up making the mundane characters feel worthless?
James McMurray
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Apr 23 2011, 09:08 PM) *
So, they're basically saying that if a powergamer took the magician quality, he'd be able to do way too much with it, and end up making the mundane characters feel worthless?


Not in anywhere near as hyperbolic a sense as that, but kinda. They're saying that the quality might be abusable and that it's intended only for people who want to play an actual magician. There doesn't have to be a risk of emasculating the other players for something to be too powerful in certain circumstances.
Yerameyahu
It's a roleplaying issue, which means you should probably just ignore it. wink.gif Seriously though, it only means 'don't let everyone grab it just in case, or for one spell, or just for Astral Sight'. I mean, wouldn't you pay 15 BP just for Astral Sight? (Maybe, it's kinda expensive.)
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 23 2011, 07:27 PM) *
It's a roleplaying issue, which means you should probably just ignore it. wink.gif Seriously though, it only means 'don't let everyone grab it just in case, or for one spell, or just for Astral Sight'. I mean, wouldn't you pay 15 BP just for Astral Sight? (Maybe, it's kinda expensive.)

I wouldn't even pay 5 BP for Astral Sight (Street Magic, page 24). I would have to nurture my magic to even be able to use any 'ware. Not worth it IMO.
Yerameyahu
Yeah, but that version doesn't let you cast spells, or Project. Hehe.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Apr 23 2011, 10:25 PM) *
Not in anywhere near as hyperbolic a sense as that, but kinda. They're saying that the quality might be abusable and that it's intended only for people who want to play an actual magician. There doesn't have to be a risk of emasculating the other players for something to be too powerful in certain circumstances.

As opposed to, say, someone who wants to play an "actual magician" that is also abusive and emasculates other characters?

Cos that's possible too.

Really, ANY game option might be abusable. The default rule before you even pick up a rulebook ought to be "don't be a dick". If you start with that attitude you shouldn't have that many problems with abuse of rules.

I've generally found an admonition to not abuse a particular rule to be kinda pointless anyhow. Those who wouldn't abuse it don't need the warning, and those who would abuse it won't pay attention to the warning.



-k
James McMurray
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Apr 24 2011, 12:00 AM) *
As opposed to, say, someone who wants to play an "actual magician" that is also abusive and emasculates other characters?

Cos that's possible too.

Really, ANY game option might be abusable. The default rule before you even pick up a rulebook ought to be "don't be a dick". If you start with that attitude you shouldn't have that many problems with abuse of rules.

I've generally found an admonition to not abuse a particular rule to be kinda pointless anyhow. Those who wouldn't abuse it don't need the warning, and those who would abuse it won't pay attention to the warning.


I don't disagree. I was just correcting a poorly worded attempt to explain what the admonishment meant that made it sound much more dire than it was.
Ascalaphus
I don't dispute that a mage can be good at certain party roles, and perhaps more so than a mundane person can. But I think it's unlikely he'll be good at all of them, so he won't be outshining the other characters in general.
Yerameyahu
I don't think anyone's arguing that. I specifically said that the mage can outshine at *any* role, not *all* (at once).
KarmaInferno
Nah, to outshine all of the other roles at once you need a SURGEd metavariant mystic adept.

wobble.gif




-k
Ascalaphus
Yeah, so that's why I think it's not such a big problem that a mage can outshine *one* party role - that just means that the guy with that role in the party happens to be a mage.

So your Big Boom Guy is a mage instead of a Sam. That's okay for the Face, Hacker, Stealth Dude and so on - they still get to shine when it's their turn.

It's a problem when you have a big party and there's no unique niche for everyone, but you'd have that problem with or without magic anyway; the "we have five Fighters and they're all a lot alike, except Joe is cooler cuz he's got the highest Strength and a Sword Of Asskicking +5."

Good CharGen involves the players divvying up who'll be doing what in the team.

It can also get wonky if the mage-player uses more rule-savvy to make his mage than the other players use to make non-mages, which isn't unthinkable.
Xahn Borealis
One hopes the mage-player will use his rule-savvy to help the other players, then.
Yerameyahu
Ascalaphus, I got the threads mixed up. The other thread was specifically asking 'do awakened characters beat mundanes (with enough karma)?', so it *does* matter if they can do it at one role.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Apr 23 2011, 11:35 PM) *
I wouldn't even pay 5 BP for Astral Sight (Street Magic, page 24). I would have to nurture my magic to even be able to use any 'ware. Not worth it IMO.


Astral Sight is worthless, you only have Magic 1 that can NEVER be raised. It means that as soon as you implant 0.01 of augmentation, you lose the Astral Sight.
Now, paying 15 points for using Astral Sight and the possibility of using counterspell is well worth it.
longbowrocks
I think I'd prefer to simulate astral sight with bone black makeup or FAB.
(cheap, and no essence cost)
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