No, it says that any machine gun can be constructed as a minigun. So this is not available as modification. The GM may however design mniniguns in "calibers" of light medium and heavy machineguns.

ed by Yerameyahu

That is.. a minor quibble.

But I will bow to your specificity.

Um. It's exactly what you disagreed with, sabs. I said, 'any miniguns are GM-design-only'. Nothing wrong with that, it's just how it is with the rules we have.

An Archery Test... Using Bows and Crossbows...

That's the old argument, Tymeaus, and it means that it's a *Complex Action*. That's a huge handicap.

I use a Bow from Time to Time (Well, I used to anyway before I had 2 titanium rods put into my back), and I would say that it is a Complex Action...
And yes, I know it is an old argument, but I think it is still valid...

I just mean that that's the reason for the debate: people don't agree that bows *should* be a Complex Action. So, when you suggest 'just use Use Skill', you're suggesting something that they've already rejected.

I know I've got the old Arsenal (one weapon mount per 3 body rounded up, lawls) but mine says:

Which I take to mean that all pieces of armor, and PPP is armor, have a minimum of 6 mod slots.
Remember that we are talking about ridiculous rules here.



Well, that's not so much a rules issue as it is a language issue. If you define the outer layer of a ball of ectoplasm to be its skin, then contact vectors work on it. Same with a machine or a wall. If skin means only the biological organ, then all mentioned are immune since the toxin has no entry vector. Oh, but if you decide that, then you deal with the fact that body armor certainly isn't skin either, so the only way to use a contact poison or DMSO round is to call a shot to bypass armor. Also, you make the tin man immune to contact toxins and you sure as hell don't need to pay for a chem seal on your milspec armor.

So many problems.

I know, toxins were already mentioned a couple of times in this thread...

My main issue with the rules around toxins and drugs is that there are different rules for each. The rules seem to imply that drugs are always used on oneself, whereas toxins are exclusivly used on another person.
Although the border between drugs and toxins is somewhat blurred with all the crazy brainbenders from Arsenal (Slab, I'm looking at you! And Crimson Orchid is also a quite effective immobilizing toxin).

Mainly, drug rules lack an onset time. Right now, drugs are taking effect instantly, which is simply ridiculous.

CJ

Having enjoyed archery in the past, in my opinion "Fire Bow" could only be a Simple Action if "String Arrow" is also a separate simple action. Anyone with allusions otherwise is entertaining a Legolas fantasy, and should remember that Draw Weapon and Load Clip are also Simple Actions. For a player desperate to play that, a house-rule, GM discretion, specific skill or adept power to string an arrow and fire the bow as a single simple action (with a test, with consequences for failure, similar to "Quick Draw" for pistols) *could* make sense for a Legolas archer-adept build, but really, it's a bit silly to say that stringing an arrow, and loosing the bolt are equivalent to pulling a trigger.

I always envisioned Shooting a bow to be:
Simple action: String Arrow, Draw Bow
Simple action: Take Aim
Free action(maybe single action): Loose Arrow

Personally, I don't see why 'no listed onset' should mean 'instant'. It's very munchkin-y to assume the best thing for oneself. Everything should be at *least* 1 Combat Turn, and a few could be longer. But I don't disagree that the lack of information is a Broken Rule™.

Um, codemonkey_uk: Ready Weapon *is* a separate Simple Action. That's why people think it's unfair to require 1 Simple Action + 1 Complex per shot. Take Aim is also another separate Simple Action, but not a required one (for bows or firearms alike).

The way my game works archery is it is a Simple Action to Ready Weapon, and another to fire. So:

Simple Action: Nock and draw.
Simple Action: Fire.

This can be sped up 50% by using Krav Maga's "Ready Weapon as Free Action."

EDIT: I guess I use the "Use Simple Object" rules for the Simple Action to fire. I had assumed that's how it worked.

My main debate however was that, as a broken rule, you can't fire a crossbow as Fire Weapon specifically mentions firearms, which a crossbow is not.

don't forget, it's a simple action to *ready* the bow... so you're saying it's a complex action to release the string?

I didn't know that a curved piece of wood with a string on it was a complex object.

the action in question was use skill, i believe.

As a (poor) alternative to Use Simple Object, yes.

Spoken like someone who's never actually tried archery before.

As someone who has competitively shot both bows and crossbows, the most complex part of them is the skill use. The weapon itself isn't all that complex (though they can be if you go for the bells & whistles). Native American and other aboriginal bows were basically nothing more than sticks with strings by today's standards. Yet those same bows were exceedingly deadly in the hands of a skilled user. Replace the word 'bow' with a weapon of your choice and the sentence remains true. The deadliness is from the skill of the user, not the weapon.

When you have an arrow sticking out of you, your least important concern is the quality of the bow that was used.

Yes, there is engineering that goes into the design & creation of the weapon, but honestly, they are NOT terribly complex devices. Your average padlock is far more complex.

Gamewise, I can however see taking a shot being a single action. Once the shot is ready, you simply point & shoot. Unlike a firearm which typically have some sort of auto-loader that reloads the firearm for you as part of the shooting cycle, you have to manually reload the bow/crossbow.

So a 'Take Aim' action followed by a 'Fire Weapon' action. Per pass, you should only be able to fire the bow/crossbow once.

In the last archery tournament I was in (a couple of months ago), we had a speed shooting challenge. Accuracy & Speed. The best archer we had was able to send 5 arrows down range in 10 seconds with 4/5 shots hitting the target, 2 were bulls eyes and 2 were next ring out; overall the archer had ~6" grouping. Before anyone uses real life to model the game, keep in mind that this shooter had kneeled, had arrows placed in the ground for quick / easy access such that upon shooting, they leaned forward, pulled the arrow from the ground and drew all in one motion. They would not have been able to accomplish this speed from a quiver on their hip or over the shoulder (by the archer's own admission).

Arsenal, vehicules and weapons amelioration.

The tables list the cost of materials but there is no cost indicated for buying thoses ameliorations from a NPC nor getting them at Character Creation as the cost of the plans aren't included and extended test are required. Also there is no Avaliability for the finished amelioration, just for the materials.

And before telling me the table list the cost, read the tables legends under the cost entry.

The complexity I see from the weapon is firing properly. Firearms replaced bows because they're easier to train people on, IIRC. This is why I don't have a terrible issue with it being a Complex to fire - I'm not too sure that a guy is going to reliabily get two arrows out in three seconds.



Quality of the arrow, maybe.



Yes! I agree completely. I believe currently it's a 'Fire Weapon' 'Ready Weapon'. Are you suggesting that the 'Fire Weapon' action include nocking another arrow? Or that the 'Take Aim' do the same?



I recall Agincourt is one of the penultimate examples of effective archery, and they did do the same thing. Stuck their arrows in the ground, and went crazy as the French heavy cav thundered down the hill to meet them.

Agincourt is actually more stupid.

The French Heavy Cav thundered up the hill and charged into the heavy infantry at the center.
While Rows of English Longbowmen were in a V formation on either side of the Heavy Infantry violating the French Cav.

Really, it was the stupidest thing in the universe. I'm French and it is sad to me how stupid they were.

If you make archery a complex action to fire, then you are shooting an arrow less than once every 3 seconds, reliably.

There are 4 discreet actions in firing a bow
Knock
Draw
Aim
Fire

Expert Archers learn how to do Knock, Draw, Aim in one fluid motion.And then fire.

Now sure how you represent that in the shadowrun system.

It functions just fine.

Eh, everything does not have to be laid out to be used or understood.

Or maybe I have been playing too long and have good comprehension.

Whatever, I still rule it like it has been for years. Simple action to ready, simple action to shoot. It works, and is functional, YMMV.

The fact that we've had several pages of people arguing how it /should/ work. Implies that it doesn't work just fine

You're more stupid! Haaar!


Well, yes. Someone at the top of their game, with arrows already ready to pull to fire close at hand is shooting once every 2 seconds on average. Making it a complex means an individual is taking about what I imagine the average would be.



A, uh. Complex Action?

So in your mind:
From taking Arrow from quiver/ground to firing is 1 complex action?

What happens if I knock my arrow, and draw, but don't fire yet. I'm prepared to fire, but holding the fire action? How does that play out.
Why is shooting a crossbow with a clip a complex action?

You're pulling the arrow from the quiver, nocking, draw, aim, and loose. Basically, you've got a Ready Weapon and Fire Weapon in one action. I think that'd qualify for Complex (and save the simple to possibly do something else, hey?).



A bit of handwavium on my part, probably. It'd be a Ready Weapon - a simple, and the firing would then be Simple again since you're already set to rock 'n roll. I'm assuming your pass would go something like - Ready Weapon, pass ends, new pass, Fire Weapon, Complex to reload/fire again. Yes?

Essentially it means your fire rate goes 1/pass 2/pass 1/pass. Not exactly overpowered if you're using a bow, and brings you to a fire rate I'd expect of a speed-freak with a Legolas complex.



Gotta pull the string back somehow, I assume. If it's a repeater, I'd treat it as a regular firearm.

Actually, I have a bad habit of shooting my own arrows in the bullseye from 60 yards. That's why I believe it's a Use Simple Object test. It is much, much easier to draw and fire a bow, especially with training, as it is to fire a crossbow.

So you require an Aim Weapon (you mean Take Aim?) for bows but not for other firearms?

I've never had any of my players use bows, so this is entirely theoretical.

Are you saying you aren't aiming when you point a gun at somebody? Just because aiming is part of the firing process doesn't mean we're using Take Aim actions unless we're taking special care to.

If you like, I can edit my post to remove the action from the Complex, as to not confuse people further.

Edit: There, I've pulled it out.

Darkeus, the point is that we're discussing rules that, RAW, don't function. We all know that you can force them to work, often easily, but the discussion is about Broken Rules.

Re: bows, let's not assume that aiming is a mandatory action; it's not for firearms, after all. So, Ready Weapon (simple) is already required, Take Aim (simple) is optional: the question remains whether 'Fire' should be simple or complex.

You're deciding between requiring 2 Simple or (3 Simple); 3 seems rather punitive, no?

How many shots can you take with a single semiautomatic pistol per initiative pass? Two, yes?

Yes, 1 per Simple Action. Bows are more than twice as slow, because they not only can only fire once, but they also use your other action to Ready. In this aspect, SS guns are still faster than bows.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be from some kind of realism perspective, but that it's punitive from a game perspective: not only would you be firing once per three Simple actions (1 Simple + 1 Complex), but you'd be monopolizing all your actions as well.

Now you could use Ready Weapon as your knock/draw action. That woudl fit perfectly within the rules.

Well, if you're not an adept with nimble fingers and multi tasking and/or that one martial arts thingie . .

Good! I'm not going crazy.

What I'm proposing is that the Ready Weapon action and the Fire Weapon action are combined into a Complex, leaving the Simple. Then you could Ready again and fire two shots the next pass.

Two. You get 2 simple actions per pass.

Yeah, don't forget that, Doc Chase: You get 1 Free + 2 Simple, or 1 Free + 1 Complex (or trade Simple for Free, but that's not relevant here). If firing a bow is Complex, you can't do anything else.

...

So I am going crazy. How the hell are people getting a long/short burst done in a round then?

Long bursts aren't complex actions are they?
Long bursts only take a simple action, but only one can be fired in an action phase.
Short Bursts are also a simple action.

So you can do 1 long, 1 short in an action phase.

Well hell. I'd still make it so the Complex covered both the load and the firing for bows.

If you're only doing one of the two, it'd be a Simple.

Right: Ready is Simple, and Fire is Simple. It just doesn't *explicitly* say that in the rules. Hehe.

I have my eye on you.

On another note, I'm feeling rather stupid for basing my idea on a mechanic that I had wrong. News at eleven.

Mulittasking is a bit broken what free actions are there that you would use not in combat time? Texting and speaking are it. how ever if your GM lets it just give you freeatcins then you can fire bows at SA speeds though its quite pricy to not be totally broken.

Dumori, can you explain that last sentence? How would Free Actions help? Are you assuming Quick Draw/etc.?

You can take a martial art to ready as a free action. Thus with more free actions you can ready 2 times and fire two times a phase.

Right, that's what I thought. You didn't mention it initially, so I wanted to make sure. I think that an Adept with Martial Arts *should* be expected to do that kind of thing (but that would be a house rule); however, I probably wouldn't allow something called 'multitasking' to give *non-mental* actions. Use it for Observe in Detail (as intended). Yes, it's probably another 'weak' Adept power, but consider the alternative: free physical actions might be *too* powerful.

Here are some Free Actions that you'd *really* want to use in many situations (and remember that you only get 1 normally): Called Shot, Drop Prone, Change Device Mode, Run, or Eject Smartgun Clip. Hell, Multitasking is probably worth it just for being able to Call two shots per IP, and what if you'd also like to Run? What if you took Krav Maga for Free Take Aim (who're we kidding: of course you did)?

Now, maybe Change Mode and Eject Clip are mental enough, but do we really want people making multiple Aimed Called Shots?

How ever it is none combat related tasks only. So it communication and observe in detail only by RAW as reloading swapping smart gun modes are all combat related. In fact one could say that it also limits what you can observe or talk about with those actions it better no be the combat going on. You have comunitcaion drop prone and run only when combat isn't involve its a pretty weird power taken at face value.

Right, I edited my post to be clearer that I was giving examples of how that would be *over* powered. Sorry for the confusion.

You're right: I agree that it's odd, but I don't think the solution would be allowing extra physical Free actions. Instead, drop the annoying 'combat' clause and simply say '1 extra mental action, including Observe, Change Mode, Eject Clip, etc.'.

I'd drop the combat clause and up its price abit. Other wise its practicality useless when are you in combat time when not in combat? Hardly ever for most people bar hackers.