I guess, if you could access and afford deltaware of bleeding edge non-human cyber, and didn't care about ruining their magic.

Well obviously. We're all about the Rule of Cool, and it's not like they have feelings!

Meh get them to raise it a few times. Any this is a OMG wtf as if the rule say that char not anythign remolte possable even binky was more sane.

Dumori, I can usually decipher your brand of English, but what? I agree that we're talking about extreme possibilities, not starting PCs, if that's what you said.

Yeah I said this is a build to so how broke the rules are its more insane than Binky. Binky was a surged centaur with basicly fullbody replacement and made a cybezombie was semi homebrewed but not really. Made a bit of a hover tank all in all.

Assuming my interpretation to be correct, that would make a biodrone a drone. All drones are vehicles. That would mean that they are then allowed to take Vehicle Modifications, since regular drones are able to take vehicle modifications.


Don't make assumptions like that. First off, you have no guarentee that everyone knew what it was supposed to mean; and secondly, the way you make it sound is that everyone else who interprets anything differently than yourself has something critically wrong with themselves. That's a dangerous road to take, especially on the internetz.

Did you really believe they intended for biodrones to turn into drones as soon as you turned on the Pilot - and revert back to animals when you jump in as rigger?

I'm not talking about how the passage can be interpreted if you're dead set on it - what did you think the author wanted it to mean?

If you want to ignore the word 'like' then sure your interpretation may succeed. "functions exactly like a drone" just makes it a simile for comparison and doesn't make it a declaration that a biodrone is a drone.

Actually, in this case, Ascalaphus is right. Literally *everyone* knows it, and anyone who interprets it (unintentionally?) to mean a critter becomes a vehicle *does* have something critically wrong with them. But that's not the point here, in this thread.

You know what else is broken..
The whole Choosing your Target thing for spells.

It says that you can target someone's physically, or you can target their astral form (if they have one)
It says if you're in the meat, you can only target physical targets
It says if you're astral you can target only astral targets
It says if you're using Astral Perception you can target both.
It says that you cannot use someone's aura to target them, UNLESS they have an astral form

BUT

When you read the Astral perception rules, it says that when you're seeing in the astral you can't see the physical world, and vice versa and that it takes a simple action to switch back and forth.

If you can't see someone physically, but you can see their aura, and you're both on the Meat side. Can you cast a spell at them?

Oh thanks goodness the discussion of the horror that is Bio-drones is finally over?

Hey, if I can make horrible innuendo from it, it must be legal.

Right? Right?

Bio-Drones are Horror Constructs!
That makes perfect sense.

@sabs: I can't find anything that actually says that you need Physical Perception to acquire targets on the Physical Plane, only that you cannot cast at a target, if you are not present on the same plane. I'd say just as with implants, astral perception is natural enough for target acquisition. Obviously you can't cast an astral spell on an aura of a purely physical target but this may just as well be due to the fact that you try to establish a mystical link on the astral plane, where the target is not present.
If however you use astral perception to establish contact with the target the link could just as well be between your physical body and the target's physical body.

in Choosing your Target:


Astral Perception:



both of these together seem to be contradictory.

They kinda are; it's very unclear in SR4. Here's the way (I think, maybe) it makes sense: you're rules-fiat considered to be active on both planes (even though you're really not), and Astral Perception shows all physical objects. Ergo, you can aim at physical objects, because you can 'see' them (even though magic is supposed to take a mystical targeting link, whatever). It's not aura-targeting, even though it might as well be.

The rules are certainly unclear enough to count as Broken Rules.

Did someone already mention the animal claws (Natural Attack) that pierce ItNW?

I feel that Mages are powerful enough and that they should be required to switch their vision to target someone.
it's a simple action. it's not really the end of the world.

You use Astral perception to target things with astral forms
You use Physical perception to target things in the real world.

How so? I was under the assumption that, as per Running Wild, Natural Attack was a normal, not paranormal Power.

Yes, sabs, but that's completely against the SR4 RAW. In SR4, Astral sight is super-do-everything-vision.

Dang it, i thought we had escaped this topic! Why bio-drones why!

I have not gone through Running wild with a fine thoughed comb, nor does everyone have this book. If you only look at the BBB there is no such distinction and as such all Powers are treated equally, and thus ItNW does not apply to attacks done with the Natural Weapon Power no matter the source.

"Immunity to Normal Weapons: This immunity applies to all
weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter
powers)."

"Natural Weapon
Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: Touch • Duration: Instant
The critter possesses some natural form of weaponry..."

natural weapon is a critter power (the precise nature of the critter power is irrelevant, as immunity to normal weapons does not specify non-mundane critter powers in any of the locations it is listed afaict), therefore it bypasses immunity to normal weapons. (so now your power throwing, missile mastery adept can throw an angry cat at a spirit for both immediate and ongoing damage)

Huh. Interesting oversight.

Well, the adept's throw wouldn't work, but the cat's subsequent attacks would, except they're too weak to matter.

A bag of cats. If we're going to do it, we won't do it by halves.

HOLY SHIT guys, we found a use for the kitten bandolier!

But that does mean ghoul magicians can never cast spells on the physical plane. A bit harsh if you ask me.

Well, do we honestly want ghoul magicians? FAQ has some wonky rules for non-LOS targeting (ignore those *entirely*), and they can suck it up and get cybereyes. However, there's a much easier answer: ghouls are for-real Dual-Natured, whereas mages are just half-Dual-Natured. So it's okay for ghouls.

Frankly, Ghouls need to be re-written so as to not be stupid beyond belief.

And I'm okay with that. They're /blind/
Although Ghouls can get cybereyes to overcome that blindness.

But really, Ghouls as written are dumb.
Ghouls, Loup-Garou.. all the dual-natured critters make no sense, since they're defenseless little babies in astral space, and can be ravaged by any astral form spirit that feels like it.

I'm not too wild about ghouls being forcibly Dual-Natured without some sort of protection against astral stunbolting. That could've been handled better..

The same applies to all dual-natured critters that aren't mages as well.

As long as they don't have a Mana-based ranged attack, at any rate.

What mana-based ranged attacks are there besides spells?

Btw, where does it say in the rules that the GHoul claws can hurt critters in the astral?
I've looked and can't see it

It's a Natural Weapon power.

Isn't the easy solution to simply make these critters *not* Dual-Natured? Most of them don't thematically require it. Ghouls would be just as ghoul-y if they relied on super-hearing/smell/etc.

That would probably work yeah. I think the idea was something like "Awakened Critter => Dual Natured". Or "Dual Natured Critter => good guard against sneaky astral mages". Except they're not.

Just get cybereyes after ghoul transformation. Voila, you lose the dual-natured power along with you magic attribute point and you can see normally...

-CJ

Most dual natured critters tend to hide away according to the fluff.

It's hard to throw manabolts from miles away at a ghoul that's in a 2-meter wide tunnel.

arguably, if you have missile mastery it's a use of an adept power (or does the missile mastery power specify otherwise?) since a cat would not normally deal that much damage.

also, the effectiveness of the subsequent attack really depends on the cat... if you've got a troll with a high enough strength, you could possibly be throwing biodrones at your enemies

No, that's my point, Jaid: throwing the cat would be a normal Missile Mastery attack, not ignoring ItNW. I meant it 'wouldn't work' for that trick.

interesting. the quote i posted clearly states that adept powers bypass immunity to normal weapons. missile mastery is an adept power. if it were merely a technique thing, then it could be learned normally, but i just don't see someone throwing (for example) a cotton ball with such technique as to deal missile mastery levels of lethal damage.

i am left to conclude that it's the adept power which deals the damage, ultimately, and since adept powers bypass ITNW... i haven't found anything in street magic or the errata/FAQ documents to indicate otherwise either.

So the adept could just...throw bullets.

OH. That's what you meant. I thought the premise here was 'cat claws bypass, so throw a cat'. Otherwise, why *bother*? Just throw things, forget the dumb cat.

Rule of Cool, my good man. Throwing a cat should give an automatic Surprise advantage.

I'm not sure that's Rule of *Cool*, but I could see Rule of Slapstick, or Rule of Dark Comedy.

As long as it's there.

Throw shoes.





-k

Who throws a shoe? Honestly?

Throw pop corn or rotten tomatoes.

Does Missile Mastery specify you have to use your arms to throw?

Could you kill someone by hocking a loogie through their forehead?



-k