Well, yes - but they are still limited to use a pilot program to do things for them unless they have a pilot origin and even drones they command cannot use empathy software as that isnt autosofts.

Not to mention that the AI itself is a pilot program taking up space on a node apart from the OTHER pilot program that is the drone brain - thats a lot of program space just to control things.

Let's say you have a High lifestyle, that's a DR 5. With a R4 AI (quite easy) you're Home Node is rocking hardware stats at 7. That is 7 Ergonomic programs and 6 regular ones - enough for just about everything you need to be doing.

I don't see the issue around it being more difficult than for any other type of touch ranged spell, since all types of touch range spell applied to an unwilling target are given the same treatment – i.e. an added to-hit roll.

What I do see as an issue is that the target is essentially rolling to dodge twice, which can't be right.
E.g. Magician wins the Agility+Unarmed vs Reaction+Unarmed contest and makes contact
Magician loses the Magic+Spellcasting vs Reaction roll and the target dodges ...??

I agree that the usual Reaction roll should instead be superceded by the melee to-hit roll (assuming that's where you were going) and would propose that any applicable Counterspelling be added to the melee defence roll.


Because those many more situations may already be covered by the rest of the team.
Throughout your career you will probably want to hurt many more people than you will want to heal, but mundane healing is much more limited than mundane hurting so Stunbolt is not strictly better than Heal.

My point exactly. But RAW is clear that if the target succeeds at either roll, the spell will not affect him. If he completely soaks the damage he is not affected either.

I'm not talking about choosing between stunbolt and heal, but stunbolt, punch or clout.

Since dealing damage probably will not be the main field of expertise of the mage, he would try to limit expending resources on that. So he would take one maybe two such spells. Then he should take the most versatile and or most effective one. Punch (or any other indirect combat spell with touch range) is neither

This does, notably, include being "jumped in" a drone.





-k

AI's are also immune to Black IC, can hide their entire body in an RFID tag, and can jump into drones while leaving no wireless signal to be detected.

It's a mixed bag, that mostly comes out on top for AIs.

This strikes me as wrong in a way... as the 'pilot' program for drones is unique in that it also serves as the drone's OS/System.

IF an AI installs it's home node in a drone and it has the pilot origins it effectively IS the drones operating system.

That's my admittedly shaky understanding of the rules there.

Similarly, IIRC: if an agent is attached to a persona... (even an AI) it's possible for it to be logged in and present in multiple systems (it's actually running on the home system... and it's outside presence is a remote icon, not itself moved into a new node). So no the pilot program, plus the AI doesn't necessarily need to be present as you seem to hint at.

From my [admittedly limited] understanding of these things, it's because the AI's persona, outside of its home system, is no different than any other persona. Like any persona, it's not the actual person, it's the representation of them. Like how a decker's persona represents them in the matrix, but really their brain is in their body, sitting in a cyber cafe in Abu Dhabi.

So, if an AI with Pilot Origin jumps into a drone, it does indeed suppress the native drone brain. But it doesn't take up any more "space" than any other persona, such as a controlling rigger.

AFAIK, the AI can either project a persona (as hackers do), *or* just 'move' to the system (as a program, like agents do). So it depends.

Not quite right is my understanding. Devices like have persona's... desktops if you like (commlink only 1... nexus more). It's possible for a device to have multiple persona's... but a hacker can only interact with one at a time. Agents attached to a persona run in that node and have access to whatever that persona has icons present in.

I've intentionally used clustered commlinks or a nexus to attach an agent to extra personas specifically so they don't need to load themselves into remote nodes.

No. You're talking about the persona limit, which is the (almost totally unused) feature that allows people to use that device as the origination point for their persona. That is, a commlink has a Persona Limit = 1, because it has one user; nexi have higher limits, because (theoretically, though I can't imagine why) multiple users can all hook their trodes to the same machine and go online.

Agents can be 'carried' along in a hacker's persona (and by extension, maybe an AIs?), but that's not the same as 'having a persona'.

You mentioned something like this: if a hacker connects to multiple nodes at once, he's somehow 'sharing' his *one* persona (Condition Monitor, attributes). No, it doesn't make that much sense.

A nexus is like a small server, allowing multiple users to all use the same programs.

The clustering rules, however, seem to be confused.


The persona limit is the sum of all the devices used, but the processor load is only the median of the devices used. By the way they are described, I would have thought those would be reversed, with a limited amount of personas allowed but a greater processor load. This is, two clustered R4 commlinks can only run 3 programs without suffering Response degradation but can allow two different users to log on.

Yeah, we'll have to assume there's some crazy inefficiency in clustering. The Persona Limit does have one actual use (IIRC?): you can use it to extend the Processor Limit/Subscription Limit (same thing, eventually). I just can't imagine two people using the same machine to get online, though. :/ Even if you were borrowing programs, you can do that *after* getting online.

Agents can be attached to a persona... which is one of the nice uses of a nexus/cluster. Agents attached to a persona (not necessarily the hacker's persona)... don't need to load themselves into a remote node (and suffer it's response/system limits), only need to get an icon into the node as it's still running on the device and is present wherever the persona's icon is present.


One big thing which a lot of people missed though is that the rules are very clear. Programs are loaded INTO THE PERSONA. Not into the node... so if you have a single copy of say encrypt in the node... you can load it into your persona, the other persona can load it into it's persona... however you end up with *two* copies of encrypt running at the same time and both counting against proc limit when they're each run.

"A running program is executed by the device on which your persona is running and belongs to your persona; only you may use the program".


So this then gets into a bit of nastiness... lets say you're encrypting your node on the fly. This means the node itself is running encrypt?! Or you have it loaded into any persona present on the device? Similarly goes for analyze when someone is trying to probe the node. If you have multiple personas on a node each with their own copy of analyze... what happens when the node is probed! (do they each start running their own firewall + analyze tallies... a scary thought to the conventional wisdom that it's easy to sneak into nodes undetected if the detection can be parallelized).

So why bother to list separately how many Persona and Programs a node can handle?

For anything but nexi, there's always 1 persona. For nexi, there's a separate, persona-based calculation.

Nexi can get pretty damn small. There's even one that's also a medium drone.

Is there any good reason a field hacker shouldn't have one installed in his ride or even following him around on an op, as a primary Matrix attack platform? Aside from the odd looks and extra attention from security he'd get, I mean.





-k

No. Is there any reason there should be a reason? Depending on your game, they're not really necessary, but they're also not really 'breaking' either. So that's nice.

A Hermes Ikon with Response 5 running in Hot Sim (6 Response) can run 11 programs total, between Ergonomic and regular. Try to find more programs that would be necessary. Useful, maybe, but not necessary. For example, while Blackout and Black Hammer are nice(ish, I don't like them) all you really need is Attack.

EDIT: That setup is 7k for the machine, not including programs (with R6 custom OS it would be 13,000 total). It can run R6 Programs and is available at chargen. A nexus that could compare is slightly cheaper (actually, in trying to build one I found many problems: for example, on page 50 of Unwired it states "..their persona limit equals System x 3," but on page 198 the chart to create your own lets you choose your own persona limit and does not have costs for a Wireless Signal [I bet you just use prices from page 222, SR4A, but Unwired doesn't say that), but you would end up having to get Optimized programs, resulting in a more expensive system overall.

Oh yeah. Inhabitation, Possession, and Materialization are all Physical powers.

Old news.

Which only means that you cannot have them active and stay in the Astral Plane. You cannot be Inhabiting, Possessing or Materialized and be Astral.
The fact that they have to be activated in Astral Space is irrelevant (and yes, they technically cannot be activated), because their activation forces the spirit to become physical. We all know what it means. So it is not broken.

No, you cannot use physical powers while on the Astral plane, which means you can never leave it since those powers are physical ones. You even agree with me on this technicality, which is what this thread is all about.

Again, I acknowledged that, but YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEIR INTENDED MEANING/PURPOSE IS, so your arguments are only semantic, at best. The rules are not broken, they are just described a bit oddly in this circumstance. Since you know what their intention is, you are just causing problems. I would not classify them as Physical, personally, but as Special. Either way, though, they are only functional when the Spirit is on the Physical Plane. I say that their activation makes them physical, which is obviously their intended purpose. And you really cannot argue that point.

This is not a thread about RAI - it is titled Broken Rules. or where RAW just fails. What I posted is exactly that, as are submersible aircraft carriers and super-tankers. Of course we know what they meant or intended, but that's not what was written, which is the point of this thread.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Well, the problem in itself is, that it makes it harder to determin how physical spells are used at all and if they are carried over on the astral plane. (Since it seems to be not that strict)
Easyiest way is to make every spell and every power only affecting living stuff a mana based once. (And set the drain for mana spells to +1)

I disagree...
Physical SPELLS are pretty evident, they DO NOT FUNCTION ON THE ASTRAL PLANE. Prety cut and dried, actually.

The issue is with the three above mentioned Critter Powers. And it is QUITE evident what they are supposed to do. It is not even about RAW vs. RAI at that point. The problem with assigning a Mana Designation to the above critter powers is that they can then use them on the Astral Plane, which is not what they are for. And it allows idiotic issues to crop up from there (Like ITNW on the Astral). The powers were designated Physical, because they only function on the Physical Plane. Instead they should have been designated "Special" in that they must be activated on the Astral, which then makes the Spirit Physical. The lack of such a designation, though, does not mean that the Critter Power is Broken.

You skipped Neraph's point, TJ. This thread is about rules that need to be fixed. Even you admit that technically you need to houserule these ones. It may only be a small fix, but this does need to be fixed.

I was noit aware there were normal weapons that work on the astral plane. Care to elaborate?

No they function on both planes. Materializing, Possessing or Inhabiting Spirits are dual natured. The powers can only be started on the Astral Plane

I agree.

Point, to you and Neraph, in that it needs to be addressed. But it is not Broken, as is generally applied in these forums.

Ummm... Unarmed Combat of an Astrally Perceiving Adept with no Killing Hands attacking an Astral Form with that impossible to acquire ITNW (Which should not be possible).



Actually, they do not. They do not gain the Critter Power: Dual Natured. Which has been mentioned earlier. It is a simple fact of game mecahnics that they exist in both places once the ability is activated.

Running in hot sim doesn't increase your devices response... it only boosts your abilities in cyber with a situational bonus. Where are you pulling that from?!?! Hot sim has no bearing on the capabilities of your commlink (outside of that simsense booster/accelerator whatever hardware upgrade granting a 5th pass).

I'm guessing you mean system5 w/ a rating 6 response upgrade (limited gear quality). Quite frankly... given the mess that is chargen... I'd probably just go with rating 5 response to start... get everything else at rating 6 in anticipation of the hardware upgrade. Start with parts to make a rating 6 upgrade using the hardware skill if you can swing it... if not some cash/barter goods to quickly obtain either the response upgrade kit itself or the parts to make it). 5BP for the restricted quality is nice but expensive for something you can acquire fairly easily after play starts... Overall though I'm with you, you really don't need more than 9 programs at a time to start... 11 is nicer once you get the upgrade.

Even a VR filter only helps by giving you +1 response for purposes of defending in cybercombat (response + firewall). It's bonuses only extend to the remote node is my understanding.. your programs run in your home node with your persona. At least that's my understanding... otherwise I might as well log in to subscription limit foreign cheap nodes for a whole bunch of +1responses!




One bit of wierdness which the rules don't address as well is what happens if I have a rating 6 program with 3 program options (not optimization)... and it degrades... can it degrade since it has the program options which require a minimum of rating 6 or does it just 'lose' an option if so which one.

If you apply the rule as written, instead of as intended, you have spirits that can never use materilization, posession, or inhabitation.

I'd say that's pretty broken. Not broken as in "too powerful", but broken as in "doesn't work".

This entire thread has been about "dosen't work as written", really, not about "too powerful".

RAI is completely irrelevant for the purposes of his discussion.




-k

Re: the physical powers pedantry (not having a go - I live for pedantry!) I don't think any of them is actually in any contradiction, though I may have overlooked something.

The Powers section in SR4a states that physical powers "cannot be used in astral space or affect astral forms". It does not say "cannot be used whilst in astral space. The use of Materialisation and Inhabitation occurs within physical space. The section also states that the critter must share the same state as the target, but both of these powers are Self-ranged, so that is satisfied too.

With Possession the range is Touch, so the critter must already be on the physical plane to use it. But reading the description, it specifically says that it is: "...and then it accesses the physical plane and attempts to possess...".

How are these two statements not meaningfully the same?

And really, "whilst"? It's "while", you!

...I may be confused from my character sheet that simply states "+1 Response in VR" and the TM Chart on page 239 SR4A for their Response.



Well.. Do you mean program degradation a-la Unwired, or running a program on a lower System?

Using caps lock: not cool.

Because one refers to the plane in which the power is used whereas the other refers to the plane from which it is being used. Materialisation and Inhabitation are used in the physical plane from the astral plane. Possession is, by the description, used in the physical plane from the physical plane. None of them are used in astral space or on astral forms.

Speaking of broken, someone once posted an example of how you could hit a ship with a tactical nuclear weapon, using the rules in War!, and fail to sink it. Does anyone have that example handy? I don't want to go digging it up now.

I would think your interpretation breaks the astral / physical barrier though. Can anything use a power FROM one plane to another?

It seems fewer changes are needed to just say "Yep, M / P / I are wrong, ignore the wrongness".

Grinder, Caps Lock is cruise control for cool (I kid, I kid).

Aerospider, maybe you need to re-read the ruling on Physical Powers:

Don't forget to read Astral Form, also on page 293, and the first sentence of Conjuring on page 186. Spirits come from the metaplanes to the astral plane as Astral Forms and then are supposed to M/P/I to the physical... except by RAW they can't.

Cain: it was my understanding that War! didn't have any stats for nukes at all. The part you're referring to may be that in War! there was a blurb about nukes not working properly anymore.

I believe that they have a Pocket Nuke with Stats in WAR!

EDIT:

If it has stats you can soak it.

Ah yes, I remember now.

A direct hit by a Freya shot destroys everything in a 20m radius, and damages things further out. However, even with that huge kill zone, it can't destroy more than 10% of a large ship in a single hit. So, at worst, you can make the ship start sinking. However, a large warship will have a large repair crew, who can quickly repair the damage, faster than the ship can sink.

A suitcase nuke suffers from the same problem. Not only do you need to actually roll dozens of dice to see how badly the ship is hurt, the example nuke won't be able to take out more of the ship than can be repaired.

Nukes and Thor shots are the Shadowrun equivalent of "Rocks fall, everyone dies." Nothing, not even a supercarrier, should be able to survive one. But now, even modestly sized ships stand a good chance of withstanding a direct hit.

Well, i was thinking a 20m spherical hole of simply missing ship might be pretty problematic . .
Especially seeing how secondary explosions would go off . .

And the damage reduction is continuous, so in theory you'd have to calculate an infinite number of different damage values for the ship

It's only broke if your GM is so braindead as to allow nukes and warships into a game.

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Well there goes MY plans for the next game. Thank you very much!

Can you provide a quote?

My current position is that technically no changes are necessary.

I don't think any of that contradicts my argument.

As I said before, the M/P/I powers are not used in the astral plane but in the physical plane and they are not used on astral forms.