Even with the bonus armour the still take damage that doesn't even hurt the transport as as far as I tell the armour isn't acutaly hardened on a vehicles so at most they get 20 extra dice and take it as stun. This means you can kill a TANK or anything by narrow bursting it to death it remains unharmed and you get a nice ride. That is RAW and maybe even RAI.

Nothing wrong with passengers getting damaged more than the vehicle; the vehicle is tougher, and bullet holes don't necessarily reduce its functionality. I'm only worried about getting a free 'multi-attack' on people just because they're inside a vehicle, and you fired 10 bullets instead of 6.

Well, by the rules, the Rigger gets an additional 14 Dice to avoid the Cops (Speed Difference), and since his dice pool is now 44 to the cops 8, well, you can just take auto successes...

So, lets assume Hard Situation (Threshold 3) and Tight Terrain (Threshold +4) for a total Threshold of 7...
The Rigger has -1 Threshold for DNI COntrol)... Threshold 6, Cops are either at Threshold 6 or 7 dependant upon Rigger connections

Note: Any Crash Tests will occur with this Threshold due to circumstance, unless teh participants manage to alter the circumstance...
Also, Any Piloting Rolls will Occur with this Circumstance

Notice that the Cops do not have the requisite Dice Pools to succeed at the Proposed DIfficulty, while the Rigger Does... The Cops are just a single bad roll away from death, while the Rigger moves happily along...

So... Chase Combat...
Step 1: Opposed Vehicle Test...
Rigger has 8 Cops/Vehicles Following him (-16 Dice) and his verhicle is still in play (+2 Dice) for a net of -14 Dice (He Buys Successes: 7 Hits)
Cops have 8 vehicles (+16) and an opposed (-2) for +14 Dice... Cops all buy Successes: 5 Hits)
Old Lady is lost after the first pass, so it really does not matter...

Rigger chooses Engagement Range (Keeps it at Extreme Range)..

Engagement Range: Is Extreme, and this will never change due to the differences in Dice Pools from the Opposed Test...

Step 2: Initiative...
Roll initiative to fix opponents in the Initiative Order...

Step 3: Begin Chase Combat...
This is where the resolution of CHase Combat Begins and will cycle through Steps 3-7 until Chase COmbat Ends...
Note: If returning here from Step 7, Make a New Opposed Vehicle Test, then continue...

Step 4: Declare Actions/Stunts...
Vehicles use Stunts, and are either Free, Simple, or Complex...
Note: You MUST spen a Copmplex Action each Turn controlling the vehicle, or your vehicle goes uncontrolled, and a Crash Test must be taken unless you spend the Next Action regaining Control...
Note: You amy also only perform a Single Chase Stunt per Turn...

Step 5: Resolve Actions/Stunts in Initiative Order...
Rigger is attempting to bereak off... So Threshold Test is 7 Additional Vehicles +1 for a total of 8 (Easily Bought with his Dice Pool as he has -1 Threshold from Rigging)... he must do this 3 times to break off... and since the Cops will NEVER close with him based upon the parameters you started with, after about 3 minutes, he will get away scott free...

Step 6: Resolve Personal Actions over subsequent Passes of the Turn...
All Personal Actions from Passengers/Participants will occure at Extreme Range between the Cops and the Rigger (That is the engagement distance)... Any other actions may or may not have an impact on the actual Chase Combat...

Step 7: End of Chase Turn, Return to Step 3 and continue until resolution....
Repeat until Chase Combat is completed...

Now, if those cops are calling in additional cars, then the cordon will continue to tighten as additional cars are added to the chase... eventually, he will either get away (he is quicker than the response time fo the Pursuers) or he will be caught (The pursuers are close enough to throw a fairly secure net around him...

I see nothing wrong with this in the least... What do you see as broken?

We use the rules as listed in the book... No modifications at all, and our chases have been fast, deadly and very, very exciting...

Note: Multiple Sides over 2 add an incrementing penalty of -2 per additional side (Beyond 2) to ALL SIDES...

The Cops do not get a Speed Bonus, because the Mirage is faster than the Cops vehicles... they in fact are on the sucking side of the Speed Issue...

Extreme Range.
How is that defined in this case?
For example, extreme Range for Heavy Pistol or Sniper is a big huge difference.
Who can still shoot what, or do they all shoot with the extreme distance dice pool modifier even though the heavy pistols extreme distance is still well inside the close combat distance of a good sniper rifle?
And what about Magic?
When do they even care about range?
LOS means the sky is the limit . . LITERALLY!
Everything under the sky out to the horizon is fair game for a mage with good enough eyes to still see stuff that appears from the horizon . .

Per the book: Extreme Range is at the Limit of Detection, and at the greatest range that engagement is still possible. This is Extreme Range for Most Ranged Attacks... GM Discretion, but I can guarantee that you using a Sniper Rifle from a Moving Vehicle, and targeting another moving Vehicle... well, lets just say that your chances are pretty slim...

Remember... Abstract...

And it is all in the book... Pages 169-170 of the SR4A...

One quip here. The example was 15 cops, not 8. So -30 to his pool, not -16.

Yeah... as I suspected, you don't know how the chase combat rules in the book "work." Let me go through.



Okay, this is totally wrong. The rigger's opposed vehicle test is at 30 (base) -30 (because there are 15 cops chasing him) +2 (he has 1 vehicle) + 14 (because he has an individual speed advantage), for a total of 16. The cops roll 8 (base) + 30 (15 of them) - 2 (1 opponent) for a total of 36. They will always, always win this opposed test so they get to set the range.

Also, they could, in theory, choose to Break Off with the old lady, but she's actually an asset to them (see below) so why would they do so? The only way to "leave someone behind" is the Break Off roll. So no, the old lady is going nowhere.



Also correct.

Yes.

Nope. Read the "Multiple opponents" rules. I have no idea where you are getting this from actually. He's at +14 from additional vehicles, but actually even without that (and doesn't terrain apply?) he has no hope of breaking off. You see, multiple opponents - in addition to -2 to everyone per opponent past the third - also contains this little gem. "For every 20 points that the highest total speed rating exceeds the second highest total, apply an additional -1 dice pool modifier to all Chase Stunt Tests performed by the slower factions' vehicles." The total speed (and yes, it explicitly says to add them) of the cops is 900, the rigger has total 200, and the grandma has total 60. 900-200=700, 700/20 = 35. So the rigger and the grandma are at a total of -37 to all Chase Stunt tests. Thus, he's actually rolling 0 dice on every chase stunt he attempts. Even if he tried something easier than Break Off, he can't possibly pull it off.

Now lets look at what the cops do after a few turns when they close. They start spamming Cut Off, which is an opposed vehicle test - 6 dice (8-2) versus 0 dice (30-37). They then force the rigger to make a crash test at additional threshold equal to the number of net hits. With "Hard" manuever and "Tight" terrain, -1 for rigging, that's 6. The cops score 2 hits on average each, for 8. Luckily the rigger does get the full 30 dice against this because it's a vehicle test, not a stunt, but he still will on average blow at least one of the 15 rolls.


Yup.



Yeah, you are not actually using the rules in the book. Not that this is BAD, mind you, because the rules in the book are completely screwed up, but you should be aware of your houserules.

You suspected Wrong... I missed that there were 15 vehicles, saw 8 for some reason...



Yes, the situation changes with 15 vehicles... as it should, which I said at the end of my example...
And no, the Old Lady is a Third opponent, and was ignored because I can see no actual reason for her to be there... a third opponent (Megacorp maybe) I could see, but a grandma... please...



Yes, I know how Mulitple Opponents reads... but your scenario is not multiple opponents...

This rules set ONLY applies to test vs. groups of more than 2 Groups... read the rules... you must have more than 2 seperate Groups to apply the Multiple Opponents rules... the old lady washes out almost immediately (If you even actually allow her to participate, which I would not), so she would not really count... And additionally, if you run the numbers with my original premise (8 chasing vehicle, not 15), my example works... You do not worry about Multiple Opponents until you have more than 2 sides...



No... at Target 7, each cop that forces a test is going to lose the Piloting Test, as they cannot obtain the requisite 7 hits for terrain and situation... Opposed Vehicle Tests... Cops with 8 Dice vs Rigger with 30 at a target of 6-7... Losers make a Crash Test... Rigger makes his with bought successes every time (Rolling will net him 10 on average each and every roll)... cops loose (with their * dice and 2 bought successes)... And since it is just Cops vs. Rigger, you only have 2 opponents, so the rules for Multiple Opponents are not in play, remember?

Read the Cut Off Stunt...
Make an opposed Test... Loser makes a Crash Test... There is no penalty to Chase Stunts here, so it is 8 Dice (Each and Every Cop) vs. 30 Dice (Rigger)... They will lose... average bought they will lose by 5 hits (2 vs 7), average rolled they will lose by 8 (2 vs 10)... this becomes a roll for each of the cops at 0 to 3 Dice (8-8 to 8-5) with a threshold of 6-7... Likely Dead Cops... Rigger escapes...



Yes, I am using the rules in the book... My mistake for your situation was in the number of Vehicles used in pursuit... and even above, if your 15 pursuing vehicles manage to close and try to crash the rigger, they die... simple math says that... there better bet would be to try to disable the Rigger's vehicle rather than attempt to crash him...

And at 15 Vehicles, the Rigger is Destined to be captured as long as the cops do not do anything stupid... However, it is generally very, very rare that you will have a 15 car vehicle chase... Really, that is such an outlier case, that comparing that to something a bit more reasonable is lime me comparing the lifing power of a 3 year old to that of an olympic weightlifter... it is just not realistic in any way shape or form... The more likely scenario is that you will have 3-4 cars initially, with the possibility of more cars joining the chase the longer it goes on... With the example I used earlier (8 Cop Cars), the Rigger evaded in 3 minutes... And yes, I completely ignored the little old lady, because it would never happen...

But for S's and G's... if you do include the old lady, per your initial scenario, she was chasing the Cops, not the Rigger, so you would have 2 Chase Scenes, One for the Cops chasing the Rigger... and one for the Little old lady chasing the Cops... Multiple Opponents are for chasing a single Target, not for a chained chase... and since the Cops will outstrip the little old lady fairly quickly, she really is a moot point...

Yes, the little old lady imposes a -2 to everyone's chase stunts (per the multiple opponents rules). If you are saying she should also apply that to everyone's Opposed Vehicle test, the rules are a bit vague but sure why not, it doesn't really affect anything.


I don't understand what you are saying (EDIT: Unless this is the objection about how you should run this as two simultaneous chase scenes. See below in that case - the problem is really that things go to hell as soon as the multiple chasers thing comes up, regardless of how it does). There are 3 groups. Rigger, Cops, Old Lady. Having the Old Lady around applies an illogical penalty to the rigger. No, it doesn't make sense. Yes, it IS in the rules.

What causes her to "wash out almost immediately?" This is very important. The only way to remove someone from chase combat is to Break Off. So long as the old lady is around, the rigger cannot manage to Break Off.



Well, yes, if you ignore the nonsensical parts of the rules, then everything else makes sense. I'm not sure I agree that it is only for multiple people chasing a single target rather than for chained chases, but that is a secondary issue. Replace the old lady with a second rigger on a Suzuki Mirage who is working for a third party and chasing the rigger (but not working with the cops). Boom, exact same problem.

The nonsensical part was your inclusion of the old lady at all...

And the 3rd Party Rigger makes sense... the question is who catches him first? Probably the cops in your scenario...

Also, by the time that you have 15 cars (Your scenario), your rigger would have long ago lost the initial cars chasing him... I mean Really... Since when do you see an immediate 15 car response withint the Extreme Range of the Chase Target? Wait, I know, Never... It was a purposeful setup to demonstrate something that you think is broken by stacking the deck until it broke...

Reasonable setups tend to work much better in my opinion, and with reasonable setups, the typical chase will have between 2-4 cars/vehicles initially chasing, with more POSSIBLY joining in... But, if you can manage to cross several Extraterritoriality points, you will likely lose those chasing you (and may pick up others)... Chase combat works wonderfully... and yes, if you manage to acquire 15 following vehicles before you can break off, then you will be caught... what is wrong with that?

We have run multiple Party Chase Scenes with up to 4 active Groups... they work just fine... of course, if you stack the deck, the n you get stacked results... if you use an organic approach, it plays just fine...

Wow, rules break when you throw extreme corner cases at them!

I am astonished!




-karma

Yeah... Like that isn't obvious...
But apparently, Some GM's like to Play an adversarial game... In that case, no one wins...

Okay, if your standard is just "is likely to come up in a game," how about this one. I suppose the advantage of numbers over speed is at least defensible since the rules are so abstract, but the way multiple chasers work really, really is not. Let me construct an example that is "reasonable" and demonstrates this.

Let's look at what happens if there are 4 cops, which you state is a reasonable number, each with 8 dice to driving, in Chrysler-Nissan Patrol-1s (the patrol car listed in the book). They are pursuing a rigger in a Eurocar Westwind 3k. Let's assume he's got a somewhat more reasonable pool of 15 dice. In case 1, the cops are chasing this rigger. In case 2, only 3 cops are chasing this rigger, but there's a seperate dude chasing the rigger with stats identical to a cop, not working with the cops, and pursuing the rigger independently. In both cases the number and quality of pursuers is the same, just in Case 2, one of the pursuers is in their own faction and doing their own thing.

In case 1, the opposed vehicle tests are going to be 8+8-2 = 14 (cops) and 15-8+2+6 = 19 (rigger). So, it is reasonable that the rigger will usually win the opposed vehicle test at the start. A third faction doesn't change this much - the rigger is still likely to win. This is largely unrelated to the problem.

Now, what do people do? In Case 1, the rigger is going to try to get away by making Break Off checks. He has a pool of 15 dice and -1 to threshold, so it's realistic for him to pull off 3 in a row. It might take more than one round of tries due to +3 Threshold from 3 extra pursuers but it is totally believable that he'll get away after a tense chase scene.

In Case 2, suddenly things are totally different and much worse for the rigger - despite the fact that he has the same number and type of pursuers, and they're now no longer working together! Everyone is getting a -2 to stunt tests, but everyone except for the cops is now sucking on a -15 to all stunt tests, leaving the rigger with no dice to actually roll. Granted, the threshold for break away dropped by one, but him and his no dice aren't going to care. The last pursuer (the guy in the patrol car not working with the cops) is also unable to ever make any stunt tests. The cops are the only people who have any hope of making stunt tests, since they're the only ones without the -15. Granted, with only 6 dice, they're not really going to pull off anything besides Cut Off but sooner or later that will work since nobody can do much about it.

Note that because the only people who are actually able to make stunt checks successfully are the cops, nobody is leaving this chase scene (unless the second pursuer gets bored and goes home or something) so it will remain multiple opponents until the rigger finally crashes.

TL;DR: It is easier to get away from 4 cops than it is to get away from 3 cops, and one dude who is exactly as good at driving and in the same car as a cop, but not actually working with the cops.

In case you hadn't noticed, TJ has a bad habit of not acknowledging that he uses house rules to make his game more fun. Personally I don't see what the problem is, but he does ignore/interpret as many rules as the rest of us, which is how he makes Chase Combat work.


Here's a true story for you. This was under the 4.0 rules, but I'll be sure to discuss the differences. We were in a souped-up racecar, with a Speed of 300. We were being chased by a go-gang, on various motorcycles; let's assume a top speed of 120. Neither of us had a rigger, so it came down to opposed rolls. Even though we beat most of the gangers, one or two of them would roll enough successes to beat our total, keeping them in Close range even though we were going twice as fast as they would. (SR4.5 grants a DP penalty to the slower vehicles, but the fact that they were making 12 rolls to our 1 still shifts the odds in their favor.) My mage called in her bound Force 10 spirit, and had it use the Movement power on our vehicle.

3000 meters/turn = 3600 KPH = Mach 3.8.

Now, the GM quite correctly decided to use handwavium, and simply declared that we escaped. But what would have happened if we had used the rules?

Under 4.0, the others would not have suffered a speed penalty. If anything, *we* would have been the ones suffering a massive penalty. We would still be facing the same opposed tests, and they'd still be winning. Under 4.5, we'd both be suffering from a speed penalty, so the net could be the same. Even if we did manage to push their dice pool to 0, and they didn't Longshot, it would take a minimum of five minutes to escape. That's one turn going from Short to Medium, another to go from Medium to Long, and then three turns doing Break Off tests. And even assuming it was an Easy test to begin with, we'd have a minimum Threshold of 12 each turn to Break Off. It might take a lot longer, even though we're outpacing fighter aircraft and they're only on motorcycles.

See how silly this gets? And that's just one example. But the fact is, unless you like handwaving combat, the rules do not work as advertised.

You are right... No one is leaving the chase scene (Scenario 2) until you reach a straight away with significant stretch, and then the incrementing distance of the Eurocar Westwind becomes a significant factor... at that point, the EW will outpace the CNP by Speed 60 each and every turn, eventually extending out and losing the cops... Once you are in a situation that the faster car will outstrip the pursuers, you are no longer in chase combat...

But I will bite here... Have you ever witnessed a Police Chase where the cops are just sedately pursuing the target for miles and miles on end until the target panics or does something completely stupid? I've seen this on more than one ocassion... In the game, this creates a crazy situation, and I agree with you on that, but there it is... And remember, the benefit of the Multiple opponents and multiple vehicle scenario is that it reduces Stunt Dice Pools... However, there is nothing that says that I Must perform a Stunt in the Turn... the only things that I need to do are Control my Vehicle (Which is not a Stunt) and make an opposed Positioning Test, which is also not a stunt. This particular scenrio you dewcribe means that I will be doing other things to give me an advantage in the execution of my escape.

Here is what I would do if I were the Rigger... I would get on the horn and call up some of my street buddies to start setting up situation ahead of my course to cause difficulties to the Cops/Other bloke until the situation changes... Easily done and is somewhat realistic, assuming that you have access to street budies like a Gang or other group. Or I could activate a Smoke Cystem to give penalties to the Opponents and force a Crash Est upon them... or Drop a Raod Strip (Spike or Zapper) to force the same thing... If not, then it will be a long chase unless something else changes the situation... Not at all unrealistic in the scope of the game...

Yes, Multiple Opponents can get crazy, especailly when there are multiple opponents with multiple vehicles. But here is the thing... you generally do not start out with Multiple Opponents in a Chase Scene. In fact, I would classify that as quite rare... you generally develop multiple opponents over the course of the chase if you are careless in your escape. And again, all of these Multiple opponents may or may not be chasing you... which is really what you have to look out for... if you genusinely have multiple opponents, all with multiple vehicles, chasing a singular vehicle, the Singular vehicle will eventually lose. That is just how it works... and mimics reality quite well...

And Honestly, at that point, I take it to the street outside of the vehicle... it is so much easier to hide a person than it is a vehicle... tailor your response to the situation based on what is more feasible...

In the end, Chase Combat is an abstraction to make the scene tense and interesting. If you have already decided that you are going to capture the characters, why bother with a chase scene?

Wouldn't you like...crash into a building and explode? I don't mean in terms of good dramatic structure or a fun game, I mean "realistically"? Like especially without a Rigger/Vehicle Specialist how could you possibly control the vehicle at that speed?

You really could not control something going that fast on the ground... by the time you saw a problem developing, you are already dead...
This also applies to flight at low altitudes as well... by the time you perceiveit, it is too late... it only works at very high altitudes...

At our table, you would die a horrible, fiery death...

Movement is magic.

So what...
Movement on the Vehicle does not magically increase your reaction time or your perceptive capabilities...

BIG, Fiery Death... at the rate of speeds mentioned previously... which you will have a hard time getting to in SR4A...

So, it's magic. It Just Works™. This has always been the explanation for Movement.

I am not complaining about the Movement Power...
Of course it works, your vehicle goes however many thousands of KPH... whatever... Yay for you (Generic You there)!!!
Just because your vehicle goes faster does not mean that you will not have issues with that speed however... No where does it say that you are immune to the increase in the movement speed...

You will still have to react to the new speed at which you find yourself, and you will fail at those crazy speeds... Movement is a great power to have, but it is a detriment if you find yourself unable to compensate for the new spoeed at which you find yourself... I think that this is why they modified the ability in SR4A... because it was ludicrous before the modification...

and Again.... BOOM !!!!...

It's not a speed power. It's a travel power. It's magic, so it's safe. The exact numbers are crazy, but they don't matter that much. You get from point A to B, to C, etc. In less time.

Sorry, I disagree here... it is Directly a Speed Increasing Power... You can, of course, travel with it, but is does not remove you from the time stream... nor does it negate physics... all the power does is allow you to increase your speed...that is it...

Fixed that for you.


In Shadowrun 4 Anniversary, it is an Optional rule, that if I remember correctly, you either "use or don't use", not test-by-test as you say.
In the Anniversary update document, as well as Missions, it is a Mandatory rule, that you use.


Ultimately, while there should be a limiter on how many rolls one is capable of making on an Extended test, the method they used is absolute shit. I suggest the following:


See Above.

It utterly negates physics, because there are no physics to negate. Yes, it is and has always been a PITA power, but does SR4 even have rules for 'going too fast'?

Muspellsheimr, I said *should*. SR4A clearly says that it should be used when appropriate; the Changes document is much less reasonable, as you say.

It is also a speed decreasing power in 4.5. And it says nothing about forcing crash tests. I'll accept it as another of your house rules at your table, but that doesn't change the fact that RAW fails you when this power is utilized.

No sir. Astral Rifts only make all physical items Dual Natured, allows mundanes to Project, and allows spirits to bridge from Metaplanes to Astral. It does not allow spirits to go from Astral to Physical.

It isn't a "splitting hairs" situation - it is explicitly what the rules state.

And the point of this thread isn't really to fix the broken rules, just to find them and complain about them. I have no doubt that many people use RAI to suspend this oddity, but that doesn't stop it from being a broken RAW.

So the spirit does not just speed you up, it steers for you? What is its Pilot rating? Force?

Anyway, here's another one. If a spirit uses the Movement power on one (or more) pedestrian allies, can it (functionally) become a motorcycle/car/what have you? Or is it mandated that you just be moving super fast in a super conspicuous way. I think I've seen canonical examples of a Spirit becoming a bike...not sure where.

Also can a spirit use the Movement power in lieu of the Levitate spell to help PCs fly? Kind of like if a Mage does not have Improved Invisibility they can summon a Spirit to use Concealment as the next best thing.

Both of these things came up in my last game session. RAW is somewhat unhelpful on these points.

It helps you handle the higher/lower speed. If it made you crash, then that's be an overlap with the Accident power.

The canon example of an ally spirit taking motorcycle form comes from a series of novels by Steve Kenson. Your speed doesn't have to be conspicuous, since you're still allowed to make Stealth rolls. As for flying, I'd personally say no, unless you've summoned an Air spirit.

Basically, the Movement power is another place where RAW fails, and you just have to waive your hands and say "It's maaaagic."

i really can't help but feel that some people are missing the point of this thread.

someone posted to ask for people to list rules that are stupid and illogical, badly written, have side-effects that would be undesirable, etc. then, when people actually respond and *post* those rules are are stupid, illogical, badly written, have side-effects that would be undesirable, etc... you get other people jumping on their heads and screaming "the way you're interpreting the rules make no sense and you're wrong for thinking they do!"

allow me to put it bluntly: all of the rules that have been pointed out in this thread are rules that have been pointed out as a specific example of a place where the rules are lacking. are the situations described nonsensical? of course they are. THAT IS EXACTLY WHY THE RULE GOT POSTED IN THE FIRST PLACE, AS AN EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE RE-WRITTEN.

so yes, obviously spirits are supposed to be able to materialize. we all realize this. you're not some sort of hotshot reporter delivering breaking news to us all. this is the thread where you post stuff that is an example of poorly written rules. it should not come as a shock to anyone who actually understands the basic premise of this thread, that all of the rules in here are poorly written, or subject to multiple interpretations, or can only be literally interpreted to mean one obviously wrong thing, etc. that's the bloody point. you won't see anyone here putting the rule that you get a penalty for ranged attacks when you go to a longer range, because that makes perfect sense. you *might* get an example where someone points out that by throwing down thermal smoke in absolute darkness, you get a worse penalty than just being blind in the first place if you don't apply some common sense, because people will look at that and say "hey wait a minute, how can you be more blind than blind?"

so seriously, those of you who are attacking people for pointing out holes in the rules that can be interpreted in nonsensical ways? you're missing the point. by a lot. like, as in, you were trying to hit the broad side of a barn on the outskirts of Dallas Texas, but you accidentally hit an office building in downtown Seattle instead.

on a side note, i'm submitting the rule that you're a worse shot with natural vision when it's pitch black and somebody has laid down thermal smoke than you would be if it was simply pitch black. that's just plain silly. (specifically, it does not indicate that only the worst possible visibility modifier applies, merely indicating that visibility modifiers apply).

Where in the rules do you get the idea that you ever apply more then one of the modifiers in the visibility table at one time.
To me atleast it seems perfectly clear that you only ever apply one of then, in that case the full darkness one as its worse.

Question:
Let us say through clever use of tech you manage to completely negate the total darkness modifier . . would the thermal smoke then become the next biggest and thus applied modifier?

There's at least a modicum of realism there : a strong and heavy vehicule, especially if it's armored, puts a lot of stress on the passengers in a crash. The vehicule itself doesn't deform much, which means a very short time to go from speed to rest. And a lot of of G-forces on the peoples inside. A flimsier vehicule would take more time and produce lower foces - though with a greater risk of getting squished if the hit is big enough.

That's why IRL SUV's aren't that great in crash tests, especially when hitting fixed obstacles.

The movement power, just like other spirit powers, acts on the environment not on the people in that environment. You arrive to your destination as if you were going n times faster but you're not actually moving faster. It's the road that somehow gets shorter for you. For an outside observer, the vehicle really seems to go faster but for someone inside, it's not.
It's strange and not very easy to imagine but it looks like it's the way it's intended since it's written that it doesn't make it harder to drive the vehicle and it doesn't affect the ramming damage.

Back on topic: Explosive ammo is more likely to explode at night when shooting at someone far away.

Basically, movement lets you drive the Tron Light Cycles. 90° turns at impossible speeds for an outsider, but on the inside, you don't notice much of anything of the outside world and it's influence on you. aise for when you crash head on into that wall in front of you . .

...and this has what, exactly, to do with the mechanical problem? I don't really care about what sort of cookies you would serve at your magical teaparty in order to ignore the mechanical problem if it came up in your game.



"It's OK that the multiple opponents rules are FUBAR, because it rarely comes up." Weren't you just talking about how you totally ran not-houseruled multiple opponents chase scenes all the time and they were totally awesome?

The basic problem is this. It is drastically easier to escape from 4 cops than it is to escape from 3 cops and one dude with the same stats as the cops but not working with them. Please explain how this makes any sense, instead of rambling on about unrelated things.

EDIT: By the way... would you try to... stop using so many .... damn ... ellipsis? You ... seem to be ... replacing ... all your ... punctuation ... except for periods .... with ellipsis. Commas ... dashes ... colons ... and semicolons ... are your .... friends. But ... don't use ... Backslash ... he's a .... psychopath.

If you have an eye light system and lowlight vision, that negates the full darkness up to 25m, then obviously the problem would now be that your standing in thermal smoke. giving you -2 to vision.
On the other hand if you have thermal vision, then the smoke is actually a bigger problem for you then the full darkness.

A good rigger would have tricked out his ride so that he could use classic movie tropes such as...

Hidden ccompartment machine guns (forward & rear facing)
Oil slick sprays (to get rid of pesky chasing vehicles)
Caltrop ejectors (to get rid of pesky chasing vehicles)
Rocket launcher mounts (to get rid of things chasing you or blocking you)

Point is, the good rigger will make the lead chasing vehicles crash so as to take out the rest of the vehicles from the chase.

First rule of an unfair / uneven fight, even the odds and if possible, slant them in your favor.

There are some problems with the vehicle stats in the rules as well.

My personal favorite is that the GM Heavy Cannon (Arsenal, page 124) is described as "the weapon of choice for main battle tanks" and "is capable of wrecking even a heavily armored vehicle with just one shot." The damage code is 17P, -8 AP.

Let us consider the Ares Roadmaster (Arsenal, pg. 109). Body 16, Armor 16. With a body of 16, it has 16 boxes on its condition monitor. Assume a shot from the GM Heavy Cannon with 4 net hits, for a total of 21P damage, with -8 AP. The Roadmaster rolls 24 dice (16 body + 16 armor - 8 for the AP). At a 4-to-1 buy-in, they get 6 hits, reducing the damage to 15P, and leaving the Roadmaster with 1 box left. (If the GM bothered to roll the dice, the damage would be more like 13, with 3 boxes left.) This is heavily damaged, to be sure, but is most certainly not destroyed. A Citymaster's higher armor means it is less damaged. Even granting that the Master vehicles are heavily armored, they are not main battle tanks. So a weapon said to be a main tank weapon can't even destroy a "riot control vehicle".

It can't even destroy a tractor-trailer, the Nordkapp Zugsmachine with a Trailer (Arsenal pg. 110). Has 24 body, 8 armor. Rolls 24 dice on defense, and takes 15 boxes of damage against the same attack.

It can't even destroy a good-size troll in heavy military armor with some basic mods. With the helmet, he'll have 19 points of ballistic armor (notably, almost what a Citymaster has, and more than a roadmaster). With a body of 10 (normal max), he's rolling 21 dice. If he rolls (doesn't burn edge), he's going to get 7 hits, so he takes 14 boxes of damage. At body ten, he has 13 so he's gone into overflow, but he's not dead. Note that if the shot only got 2 net hits, the damage would be shifted to stun.

Pretty much all of the high end anti-vehicular weapons have this problem. I particularly love that the most powerful weapon against vehicles (22P) is an anti-aircraft missile (the Saab-Saaker AIM-27 Sparrow Hawk).

Speaking of aircraft, some of those stats are just silly. The Aztech Aguilar Attack Helicopter (Arsenal pg. 116) has body 16, armor 16. It's a flying Roadmaster! And it can survive a hit from a main battle tank cannon!

And the difference between motorcycles and cars has always been a bit twitchy to me. Motorcycles are typically much higher acceleration than sports cars, even if their top speeds aren't quite as high. Motorcycle vs. car, the car gains in the twists, the bike gains coming out of the turn. Comparing the two high-end racers, the Westwind and the Mirage, the accel numbers are out of whack. And in general, they seem to get it backwards. Minor point, but it has always bothered me.

Sensors can be a bit wonky too. You can put ultrasonic vision in contact lenses, but, RAW, you can't put it in a vehicle sensor package. I think the RAI were that you could put audio and visual enhancements into a sensor package, but it's not clear.

Magic-wise, banishing only makes sense against unbound low-force spirits. Higher force spirits (6+) or bound spirits (where they get to add their summoner's magic rating), means that can be rolling 8 or more dice fairly often. That results in drain of three or four boxes. While a force 5 Slay Spirit will have a drain value of 1, while a manabolt will have a drain of 2. Sure you might have to cast it twice, but you'll be able to resist the drain fairly easily, and you know what the drain is going to be. The spirit gets lucky, or the spirit turns out to be higher force and bound to a mage with a good magic rating, and suddenly you have to deal with 3 or 4 times the drain rating. The only advantage is that you might get lucky and whack all of the spirits services in one go...but the risk is pretty darn high.

What happens to a person standing in a 5x5 m room made of concrete walls when a flashbang grenade explodes in that room?
Honestly, the grenade rules are such a mess, that I really don't know the RAW answer to that question.


So what happens, when there is a barrier that confines the blast radius to less than 10 meters? Than, we have to look at the following rule:


Now, obvoiusly this rule was written with the fact in mind, that all damage dealing grenades lose blast effect at certain rates (e.g. -1/m). Except flashbang grenades of course. If we assume that the barrier holds against the initial blast, the blast is reflected and travels back. Since the blast wave never reaches the 10 m radius, where it will mysteriously vanish, one could argue that the blast will rebound a couple of dozen times from each wall reaching obscene damage levels for everyone in the room...

-CJ

It's not a giant loop.



Statement #1 - Ranged combat rules also apply to bows (crossbows) and throwing weapons.
Statement #2 - Reloading a bow takes a Ready Weapon action (SIMPLE).
Statement #3 - Crossbows do not require a Ready Weapon action but rather use an internal magazine. This means that as a COMPLEX action you can reload your agility worth of bolts into a crossbow.

The following are not interpretations but rather logical extensions of those statements. Complex actions for attacks are -normally- reserved for melee attacks or certain types of ranged firing modes (full auto, suppressive). Since bows and crossbows used the ranged combat rules their attacks would normally be simple actions. All problems stem from the Fire Weapon simple action utilizing the word firearm in the first sentence. However, the note for that section addresses it as weapons rather than firearms, but excludes any weapon which isn't single shot.

The major issue is that projectile weapons aren't listed with a firing mode. This isn't an issue for a bow since it must be single shot by virtue of reloading after each shot. The crossbow has the issue of having four rounds loaded. Is it single shot, semi-auto, burst fire?

RAI is most certain SA for crossbows and SS for bows. That would make bows (Reload Fire) (Reload Fire) (Reload Fire) while Crossbows would be (Fire Fire) (Fire Fire) (Reload) over the same three IPs.

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I uh ran into that situation myself.... after taking 8S damage from a sharpshooter.... two goons came up in an elevator I tossed in the flashbang. They got KOed by well over 10S while I took 1S.

a 2mx2m room (makes the math easier)

10M radius explosion

You're talking roughly 24*6S for a lovely 144S damage.
Which doesn't make a ton of sense, although you probably just super saturated the air with the ignitable material and then sparked it. It really SHOULD do more damage, just probably not 144S

Runner Smurf, you can put ultrasound in a camera, and the camera in the vehicle. Yes, not a *good* solution; you're right, the sensor/visual device rules are wonky.

10m radius.

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ox
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Let's say that the above series of characters models the room for the purpose of bouncing. x indicates where the grenade lands. You would get 5 strikes from the blast wave moving east and west, and 4 strikes from it moving north and south. So the it's probably closer to (6S -3AP) * 18 damage or 108S assuming no resisted damage.

I'm pretty sure I would have been only marginally bothered by what I just did if it was an innocent.

What about cealing and floor?

Oh jesus. That means that the base damage for a flashbang that goes off at your feet would be (6S -3AP) * 2. Once for the blast going upward and once for it going down and bouncing up. o.O

Yep ^^

Which is why grenade-in-an-elevator is fun. Either the walls, floor, and ceiling withstand the blast and throw it back and forth and back and forth against your enemies a hojillion times...or they don't, and folks fall to their death. Win/win!