If they only did what you clarified you mean, it might work out nicely.
If fans actually made a rewrite, most likely not only would you need to reference older editions, but also at least half a dozen completely different RPG lines

Have you ever attempted to herd cats?

Have you been reading "Not Invented Here"? That sounds like today's strip.
http://notinventedhe.re/on/2010-9-14/

I have four daughters ranging in age from 13 (almost 14) to 3 years old. Getting them all on the same page is for all intents and purposes nearly impossible.

I understand just how impossible my comment is. I have toyed around with doing a revision of my own to clear things up for my satisfaction.

Let us take a simple example.


Version A
Critter Powers
Physical Powers can't be used from astral.

Manifestation (Physical Power)
Certain astral critters are capable of projecting themselves into
the material world.



Version B
Critter Powers
With exceptions, Physical Powers can't be used from astral.

Manifestation (Physical Power)
Certain astral critters are capable of projecting themselves into
the material world.


Version C
Critter Powers
Physical Powers can't be used from astral.

Manifestation (Physical Power)
As an exception to the rule that Physical Powers can't be used from astral, certain astral critters are capable of projecting themselves into
the material world.


I believe that version A, B, and C above have the same meaning. When a rule as written describes an exception, it is of course an exception. There is no need to spell out "this is an exception".

You believe that the versions have different meaning. Versions B and C are ok, but version A is self contradictory. If a rule as written describes an exception, it needs to be explicitly stated in the general rule that it is just a general and/or exceptions are possible, or that the rule is an exception.


The bow thing, that's a broken rule, we can agree on that. But Materialization and Indirect Combat spells, that's a different story. We both agree that the text describes an exception - you just think that because it doesn't say "this is an exception", it is a contradiction instead.


As an experiment, I've been trying to read the rules your way. It gives a lot more problems. The Choose Target(s) section on pg 183 lists quite a different procedure than described under Indirect Combat spells on page 204 (LOS, bouncing off reflective such, etc.). Determine Effect on pg 183 doesn't say anything about the way for example Invisibility is used, where the caster rolls when casting but resistance tests or comparison to OR is only done later. Obviously, Magic Fingers, Physical Barrier and such spells also need to beat an object's OR, otherwise the object is unaffected by such spells.
Honestly, when you start reading rules like that, lots of stuff stop making sense.

They could also have made Manifestation not a Physical Power but an Astral Power.

OR they could have had a brain and had for spirits:

Stats:
Astral INIT/IP
Movement:
Skills:
Attributes:
Powers:
Optional Powers:

In attributes I would have put things like
Astral Form, Materialization, Possession, Sapience, Infection, endowment.

Things that are not really 'powers' but are descriptions of the types of things they are.
And why do you even have to give spirits the Astral Form Power.. they're god damn spirits, it's understood they exist in the Astral Plane only.

I just agree with this entire post so goddamn much.

I also agree.

Fixed that for you.

I started to wade through all this and enjoyed some of it. But in the last couple of pages it got into TL:DR range.

My pick of broken rules:

Medkits: Rank 6 Medkits are relatively easy to come by and by Raw have no downside.

If you have a medkit and do not have the skill you can use the medkit rating as your skill. If you have the skill you add the medkits rating as a dicepool benefit.

Now heres the kicker: The maximum amount of damage you can heal with first aid is capped by your skill. In essence a person with no skill and a rank six medkit is a vastly better medic then a person with 3 in first aid and a rating 6 medkit. It's the only thing in the game I can think of that actually punishes you for having a skill and hands out free ranks in a skill like candy.

How did you deduce that? As I read the relevant paragraphs, you may use the medkit's dice but since you don't actually have a skill, you can't heal any damage. That's fine with me. You could use the kit for diagnostics though.


I got another broken rule:
Called Shots and firing more than one bullet

By RAW you can call a shot to increase damage on a wide burst, but only if the weapon is in BF mode. A wide short burst or even a narrow one in FA cannot do that. Not even more than enough recoil compensation can change that.
Automatically stopping to fire after three rounds must magically make the previous shot more accurate

That makes absolutely no sense.
Especially when you read the description of the R6 medkit.
It's clearly supposed to allow you to heal damage.

Let me see:
How can anything that does not exist be replaced?

So only the skill is the limit not anything that may have replaced the skill.
That only means the character can roll LOG+Medkit rating instead of LOG -1 for defaulting with a situational modifier equal to the medkit's rating. It does not confer any healing capabilities.

As for being penalized for having a skill, you forgot that anyone who does not have a medkit suffers an additional -3 dice for not having appropriate tools. If they have the skill though, they can theoretically remove damage boxes.

I think you can still stableis by defaulting. So perhaps that RAW is RAI but could be clearer.

This right there makes it clear that you /can/ heal with a medkit if you have no skill.
Though it is stupid that someone with skill heals for less than someone with no skill.

But making a medkit not heal anyone if you don't have any skill, is equally silly given the description of the item.

Its' clearly a Broken Rule.

Is it? If it says it adds to your rating, then the number of boxes you can heal goes up.

So someone with no skill and a Rating 6 caps at 6 boxes of damage, while someone with a rating 6 kit and a skill rank 3 could heal 9.

But it doesn't say it adds to your rating.
It says: It adds to your dice pool. If you have NO skill, then the rating replaces your skill.

That's very different than saying the Rating of the Medkit adds to your rating in First Aid Skill.

I think the problem is that RAW, the person with 3 skill and a 6 kit rolls more dice than the person with no skill but caps out at a maximum of 3 boxes healed while the person with no skill who lets the kit do everything caps out at 6 boxes healed (but may not roll enough successes to get 6 boxes).

The fact that there's this much discussion about how the medkit works validates the position that the rules are broken.

Another thread reminds me: Upgrading Sensors Rating on a vehicle/drone. It's just broken. Yes, there are plenty of sane houserules, but as written, it's critically botched.

I'd also like to nominate "rating" vs. "device rating" and "capacity" (enhancements) vs. "capacity" (sensors).

Those aren't really broken. They're functional, just unclear; people get confused.

Since no one replied to called shots on bursts can I assume a general consensus that limiting the called shot three round bursts in BF is silly?

I mentioned earlier that a Called Shot on *any* Wide Burst is a silly idea (but I wouldn't call it 'broken' in the sense of this thread). As for your point (3-burst BF != 3-burst FA), I agree that it's dumb, but it's not actually 'broken' in terms of nonfunctional.

I would just argue that it is a Use Skill Test... Simple and well within the rules... But hey, that is just me I guess...

what is a use skill test?
I know what a skill use test is, I mean.. what are you saying is a Use Skill Test.


On a different note:
Another candidate for the Badly worded/broken rules line.

Max IP, and IP stacking
If all you own is SR4a you would think that the max IP is 5.
And, there's nothing that says that Cram or K-10 don't stack with Improved Reflexes.

Like many of the dumber things about RAW I was house ruling this without even knowing about it.

While that rule is indeed buggered, for what little it's worth there is a small fix featured in Augmentation:


So basically under this rule-fix, if your average paramedic has 3 skill and an R:6 medkit, he'll still be able to heal up to 6 boxes in one go, as opposed to decreasing his potential success due to his higher competance when compared to some clueless guy who happens to have a top-of-the-line medkit.

Now while this is only an obscure amendment to a broken rule in the back end of a suppliment, it's such an easy and completely sensible fix I can't help but wonder why the bloody hell this wasn't made a de-facto rule in the core book.

Because that would be easy.

Can we get into toxins yet?

A full chemical seal suit which has been punctured offers no chemical protection from contact or inhalation toxins.
A PPP jockstrap with rating 6 chemical protection does. Both contact and inhalation.

Dangly parts!

Wait why can you put any chemical/elemental mods on a PPP part?

I would imagine those kinds of mods are only for full suits, and not for addon pieces of extra protection.

Chemical seal (which also includes a self contained breathing apparatus) is for full body armor only, chemical protection can be added to any type of armor.

It reads to me like 5 IP max are an exception and a hard cap while 4 IP is the soft cap most of the time.

5 is only for technomancers and hackers. which is dumb.

That very well maybe true.. but it certainly doesn't say that.

And it's dumb because it means a rigger jumped into a drone gets 5IP's a round in the meat.

But needs to spend one complex action to keep his vehicle from crashing. I know Jarheads don't have that problem. I'd not say that this rule is broken, just unfair.

Another weird thing is that initiative enhancements which are not supposed to stack are not clearly defined. The description of the MBW suggests that even Reaction enhancers (which only boost the initiative score indirectly) are Initiative Enhancements. Not technically broken but ill defined.

That's only true if the rigger is moving his drone/vehicle.
If I jump into a smart firing platform, with a heavy machine gun on it.
I get to fire 5 Full Auto, with almost no recoil.

And by then, it is broken.
But why no close to no recoil?
OK, still leaves you with doing one wide burst to lessen dodge pool of targets and then use several narrow bursts to hurt them with.

A Smart Firing Platform is a non moving Robotic Tripod providing 6 points of Recoil Compensation

Put a L/M/HMG with a gas vent 3 system and you have 9 points of recoil compensation
ie: 0 recoil

Sure, you can't move. This is more useful for Defense, then Offense. Although, if your team uses good tactics, it can be quite useful.

PPP Vitals Protector is only 1/1 armor, so it can only accept 2 points of Chemical Protection (as it follows the Armor Modifications rules and not the Armor Capacity rules [as it has no Capacity]).

Shouldn't there be a difference between Chemical protection for things like splash attacks (acid, some venoms)
and gas/inhale/touch toxins?

Only if you use those optional rules.

@sabs: maybe there should.

Possibly, but that's adding a whole new level of detail and rules to the game that would be unneccessary.

Has anyone mentioned spirits being affected by Toxins yet?

Ah i see.
Have the Teams Troll or Centaur carry the whole thing then . .
Wait, does the same recoil apply if the troll were using this to fire the gun while holding the whole thing in his hands?

Well, I would think not.
You have to deploy the tripod to get the rc 6 tripod bonus.
But If the troll was strong enough, he could get you 3 point of recoil compensation.
So you'd be sitting at 6rc while he had the whole thing in his arms. (or mounted to his shoulder )

The gas vent recoil /would/ apply though.

You could go with Gas Vent 3 (3), Heavy Barrel(1), Electronic firing (1)
That would give you 5 points, combined with his 2 or 3 points get you to 8 roughly, for a Troll Mounted Shoulder HMG with 5ips from the Rigger running it.

Your best bet would be to have the troll carry it, and use an action to deploy it.
If you added the high velocity modification, you'd even want the extra recoil mod so you could fire full auto high velocity at 0 penalty.
18P -3AP for the win


Can someone explain to me why Machineguns cannot get the High Velocity Modifiction? (other than nebulous 'game balance')
What makes a sub machinegun or an assault rifle, special compared to a machine gun?
I suppose I coudl go with the minigun option. Turning a stoner-Ares M107 into a heavy minigun.
Still I need to find 14 points of recoil compensation.
Smart firing Platform: 6
Gas Vent 3: 3
Heavy Barrel(1)
Electronic Firing (1)

Sadly that's only 11. That still gives me 3 uncompensated recoil which explodes to -6 to my DP.. sigh.

i'll guess this is more or less what they are trying to accomplish with the errata board on the official forums . . of course, this would not be for the initial product for causal and temporal reasons . .

What's wrong with 'nebulous game balance' as the reason? It's a game, that should be the primary reason behind everything.

Be creative, though. Maybe SMG/AR bullets work for HV because they're smaller; yes, AR and LMG are the same bullets, try to ignore this. A better question is: why is it called High *Velocity*?

There are no rules to minigun-ize anything, so that's a GM build-from-scratch.

Heh, if you look at the old artwork for the original Ares HVAR and HVLMG they look an awful lot like they have multiple barrels.

Also, did they ever stat out the minigun pistol featured in the promotional flyer for the aborted Shadowrun: Assassin video game?



-karma

It says in Arsenal that any Machine Gun can be turning into a minigun

I think you'll find that it doesn't.