@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Well, the problem in itself is, that it makes it harder to determin how physical spells are used at all and if they are carried over on the astral plane. (Since it seems to be not that strict)
Easyiest way is to make every spell and every power only affecting living stuff a mana based once. (And set the drain for mana spells to +1)

I disagree...
Physical SPELLS are pretty evident, they DO NOT FUNCTION ON THE ASTRAL PLANE. Prety cut and dried, actually.

The issue is with the three above mentioned Critter Powers. And it is QUITE evident what they are supposed to do. It is not even about RAW vs. RAI at that point. The problem with assigning a Mana Designation to the above critter powers is that they can then use them on the Astral Plane, which is not what they are for. And it allows idiotic issues to crop up from there (Like ITNW on the Astral). The powers were designated Physical, because they only function on the Physical Plane. Instead they should have been designated "Special" in that they must be activated on the Astral, which then makes the Spirit Physical. The lack of such a designation, though, does not mean that the Critter Power is Broken.

You skipped Neraph's point, TJ. This thread is about rules that need to be fixed. Even you admit that technically you need to houserule these ones. It may only be a small fix, but this does need to be fixed.

I was noit aware there were normal weapons that work on the astral plane. Care to elaborate?

No they function on both planes. Materializing, Possessing or Inhabiting Spirits are dual natured. The powers can only be started on the Astral Plane

I agree.

Point, to you and Neraph, in that it needs to be addressed. But it is not Broken, as is generally applied in these forums.

Ummm... Unarmed Combat of an Astrally Perceiving Adept with no Killing Hands attacking an Astral Form with that impossible to acquire ITNW (Which should not be possible). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



Actually, they do not. They do not gain the Critter Power: Dual Natured. Which has been mentioned earlier. It is a simple fact of game mecahnics that they exist in both places once the ability is activated.

Running in hot sim doesn't increase your devices response... it only boosts your abilities in cyber with a situational bonus. Where are you pulling that from?!?! Hot sim has no bearing on the capabilities of your commlink (outside of that simsense booster/accelerator whatever hardware upgrade granting a 5th pass).

I'm guessing you mean system5 w/ a rating 6 response upgrade (limited gear quality). Quite frankly... given the mess that is chargen... I'd probably just go with rating 5 response to start... get everything else at rating 6 in anticipation of the hardware upgrade. Start with parts to make a rating 6 upgrade using the hardware skill if you can swing it... if not some cash/barter goods to quickly obtain either the response upgrade kit itself or the parts to make it). 5BP for the restricted quality is nice but expensive for something you can acquire fairly easily after play starts... Overall though I'm with you, you really don't need more than 9 programs at a time to start... 11 is nicer once you get the upgrade.

Even a VR filter only helps by giving you +1 response for purposes of defending in cybercombat (response + firewall). It's bonuses only extend to the remote node is my understanding.. your programs run in your home node with your persona. At least that's my understanding... otherwise I might as well log in to subscription limit foreign cheap nodes for a whole bunch of +1responses!




One bit of wierdness which the rules don't address as well is what happens if I have a rating 6 program with 3 program options (not optimization)... and it degrades... can it degrade since it has the program options which require a minimum of rating 6 or does it just 'lose' an option if so which one.

If you apply the rule as written, instead of as intended, you have spirits that can never use materilization, posession, or inhabitation.

I'd say that's pretty broken. Not broken as in "too powerful", but broken as in "doesn't work".

This entire thread has been about "dosen't work as written", really, not about "too powerful".

RAI is completely irrelevant for the purposes of his discussion.




-k

Re: the physical powers pedantry (not having a go - I live for pedantry!) I don't think any of them is actually in any contradiction, though I may have overlooked something.

The Powers section in SR4a states that physical powers "cannot be used in astral space or affect astral forms". It does not say "cannot be used whilst in astral space. The use of Materialisation and Inhabitation occurs within physical space. The section also states that the critter must share the same state as the target, but both of these powers are Self-ranged, so that is satisfied too.

With Possession the range is Touch, so the critter must already be on the physical plane to use it. But reading the description, it specifically says that it is: "...and then it accesses the physical plane and attempts to possess...".

How are these two statements not meaningfully the same?

And really, "whilst"? It's "while", you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

...I may be confused from my character sheet that simply states "+1 Response in VR" and the TM Chart on page 239 SR4A for their Response.



Well.. Do you mean program degradation a-la Unwired, or running a program on a lower System?

Using caps lock: not cool.

Because one refers to the plane in which the power is used whereas the other refers to the plane from which it is being used. Materialisation and Inhabitation are used in the physical plane from the astral plane. Possession is, by the description, used in the physical plane from the physical plane. None of them are used in astral space or on astral forms.

Speaking of broken, someone once posted an example of how you could hit a ship with a tactical nuclear weapon, using the rules in War!, and fail to sink it. Does anyone have that example handy? I don't want to go digging it up now.

I would think your interpretation breaks the astral / physical barrier though. Can anything use a power FROM one plane to another?

It seems fewer changes are needed to just say "Yep, M / P / I are wrong, ignore the wrongness".

Grinder, Caps Lock is cruise control for cool (I kid, I kid).

Aerospider, maybe you need to re-read the ruling on Physical Powers:

Don't forget to read Astral Form, also on page 293, and the first sentence of Conjuring on page 186. Spirits come from the metaplanes to the astral plane as Astral Forms and then are supposed to M/P/I to the physical... except by RAW they can't.

Cain: it was my understanding that War! didn't have any stats for nukes at all. The part you're referring to may be that in War! there was a blurb about nukes not working properly anymore.

I believe that they have a Pocket Nuke with Stats in WAR!

EDIT:

If it has stats you can soak it.

Ah yes, I remember now.

A direct hit by a Freya shot destroys everything in a 20m radius, and damages things further out. However, even with that huge kill zone, it can't destroy more than 10% of a large ship in a single hit. So, at worst, you can make the ship start sinking. However, a large warship will have a large repair crew, who can quickly repair the damage, faster than the ship can sink.

A suitcase nuke suffers from the same problem. Not only do you need to actually roll dozens of dice to see how badly the ship is hurt, the example nuke won't be able to take out more of the ship than can be repaired.

Nukes and Thor shots are the Shadowrun equivalent of "Rocks fall, everyone dies." Nothing, not even a supercarrier, should be able to survive one. But now, even modestly sized ships stand a good chance of withstanding a direct hit.

Well, i was thinking a 20m spherical hole of simply missing ship might be pretty problematic . .
Especially seeing how secondary explosions would go off . .

And the damage reduction is continuous, so in theory you'd have to calculate an infinite number of different damage values for the ship (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It's only broke if your GM is so braindead as to allow nukes and warships into a game.

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Well there goes MY plans for the next game. Thank you very much!

Can you provide a quote?

My current position is that technically no changes are necessary.

I don't think any of that contradicts my argument.

As I said before, the M/P/I powers are not used in the astral plane but in the physical plane and they are not used on astral forms.