Broken Rules., Or where RAW just fails. Options

[Yerameyahu]

It utterly negates physics, because there are no physics to negate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Yes, it is and has always been a PITA power, but does SR4 even have rules for 'going too fast'?

Muspellsheimr, I said *should*. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) SR4A clearly says that it should be used when appropriate; the Changes document is much less reasonable, as you say. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

Sorry, I disagree here... it is Directly a Speed Increasing Power... You can, of course, travel with it, but is does not remove you from the time stream... nor does it negate physics... all the power does is allow you to increase your speed...that is it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

It is also a speed decreasing power in 4.5. And it says nothing about forcing crash tests. I'll accept it as another of your house rules at your table, but that doesn't change the fact that RAW fails you when this power is utilized.

[Neraph]

no worries, spirits with the astral gateway power can make it onto the physical plane though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

No sir. Astral Rifts only make all physical items Dual Natured, allows mundanes to Project, and allows spirits to bridge from Metaplanes to Astral. It does not allow spirits to go from Astral to Physical.

[Neraph]

Yeah, that's really one of those "splitting hairs" situations. I think everyone can agree (... maybe not Cain) that the RAI are that Materialization can be used, as it is what makes them actually appear on the physical.

It isn't a "splitting hairs" situation - it is explicitly what the rules state.

And the point of this thread isn't really to fix the broken rules, just to find them and complain about them. I have no doubt that many people use RAI to suspend this oddity, but that doesn't stop it from being a broken RAW.

[Neurosis]

It's not a speed power. It's a travel power. It's magic, so it's safe. The exact numbers are crazy, but they don't matter that much. You get from point A to B, to C, etc. In less time.

So the spirit does not just speed you up, it steers for you? What is its Pilot rating? Force? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Anyway, here's another one. If a spirit uses the Movement power on one (or more) pedestrian allies, can it (functionally) become a motorcycle/car/what have you? Or is it mandated that you just be moving super fast in a super conspicuous way. I think I've seen canonical examples of a Spirit becoming a bike...not sure where.

Also can a spirit use the Movement power in lieu of the Levitate spell to help PCs fly? Kind of like if a Mage does not have Improved Invisibility they can summon a Spirit to use Concealment as the next best thing.

Both of these things came up in my last game session. RAW is somewhat unhelpful on these points.

[Cain]

So the spirit does not just speed you up, it steers for you? What is its Pilot rating? Force? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Anyway, here's another one. If a spirit uses the Movement power on one (or more) pedestrian allies, can it (functionally) become a motorcycle/car/what have you? Or is it mandated that you just be moving super fast in a super conspicuous way. I think I've seen canonical examples of a Spirit becoming a bike...not sure where.

Also can a spirit use the Movement power in lieu of the Levitate spell to help PCs fly? Kind of like if a Mage does not have Improved Invisibility they can summon a Spirit to use Concealment as the next best thing.

Both of these things came up in my last game session. RAW is somewhat unhelpful on these points.

It helps you handle the higher/lower speed. If it made you crash, then that's be an overlap with the Accident power.

The canon example of an ally spirit taking motorcycle form comes from a series of novels by Steve Kenson. Your speed doesn't have to be conspicuous, since you're still allowed to make Stealth rolls. As for flying, I'd personally say no, unless you've summoned an Air spirit.

Basically, the Movement power is another place where RAW fails, and you just have to waive your hands and say "It's maaaagic."

[Jaid]

Yeah, that's really one of those "splitting hairs" situations. I think everyone can agree (... maybe not Cain) that the RAI are that Materialization can be used, as it is what makes them actually appear on the physical.

That actually reminds me of this:

... which is from this

i really can't help but feel that some people are missing the point of this thread.

someone posted to ask for people to list rules that are stupid and illogical, badly written, have side-effects that would be undesirable, etc. then, when people actually respond and *post* those rules are are stupid, illogical, badly written, have side-effects that would be undesirable, etc... you get other people jumping on their heads and screaming "the way you're interpreting the rules make no sense and you're wrong for thinking they do!"

allow me to put it bluntly: all of the rules that have been pointed out in this thread are rules that have been pointed out as a specific example of a place where the rules are lacking. are the situations described nonsensical? of course they are. THAT IS EXACTLY WHY THE RULE GOT POSTED IN THE FIRST PLACE, AS AN EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE RE-WRITTEN.

so yes, obviously spirits are supposed to be able to materialize. we all realize this. you're not some sort of hotshot reporter delivering breaking news to us all. this is the thread where you post stuff that is an example of poorly written rules. it should not come as a shock to anyone who actually understands the basic premise of this thread, that all of the rules in here are poorly written, or subject to multiple interpretations, or can only be literally interpreted to mean one obviously wrong thing, etc. that's the bloody point. you won't see anyone here putting the rule that you get a penalty for ranged attacks when you go to a longer range, because that makes perfect sense. you *might* get an example where someone points out that by throwing down thermal smoke in absolute darkness, you get a worse penalty than just being blind in the first place if you don't apply some common sense, because people will look at that and say "hey wait a minute, how can you be more blind than blind?"

so seriously, those of you who are attacking people for pointing out holes in the rules that can be interpreted in nonsensical ways? you're missing the point. by a lot. like, as in, you were trying to hit the broad side of a barn on the outskirts of Dallas Texas, but you accidentally hit an office building in downtown Seattle instead.

on a side note, i'm submitting the rule that you're a worse shot with natural vision when it's pitch black and somebody has laid down thermal smoke than you would be if it was simply pitch black. that's just plain silly. (specifically, it does not indicate that only the worst possible visibility modifier applies, merely indicating that visibility modifiers apply).

[Mäx]

on a side note, i'm submitting the rule that you're a worse shot with natural vision when it's pitch black and somebody has laid down thermal smoke than you would be if it was simply pitch black. that's just plain silly. (specifically, it does not indicate that only the worst possible visibility modifier applies, merely indicating that visibility modifiers apply).

Where in the rules do you get the idea that you ever apply more then one of the modifiers in the visibility table at one time.
To me atleast it seems perfectly clear that you only ever apply one of then, in that case the full darkness one as its worse.

[Stahlseele]

Question:
Let us say through clever use of tech you manage to completely negate the total darkness modifier . . would the thermal smoke then become the next biggest and thus applied modifier?

[Manunancy]

To me the bigger issue is that it's resolved as a ram attack -- so that the more Body your vehicle has, the more damage you take (by quite a bit). Something's a little off when you're better off crashing at 100+ kmh on your motorcycle than in the back of a riot control vehicle.

There's at least a modicum of realism there : a strong and heavy vehicule, especially if it's armored, puts a lot of stress on the passengers in a crash. The vehicule itself doesn't deform much, which means a very short time to go from speed to rest. And a lot of of G-forces on the peoples inside. A flimsier vehicule would take more time and produce lower foces - though with a greater risk of getting squished if the hit is big enough.

That's why IRL SUV's aren't that great in crash tests, especially when hitting fixed obstacles.

[Blade]

The movement power, just like other spirit powers, acts on the environment not on the people in that environment. You arrive to your destination as if you were going n times faster but you're not actually moving faster. It's the road that somehow gets shorter for you. For an outside observer, the vehicle really seems to go faster but for someone inside, it's not.
It's strange and not very easy to imagine but it looks like it's the way it's intended since it's written that it doesn't make it harder to drive the vehicle and it doesn't affect the ramming damage.

Back on topic: Explosive ammo is more likely to explode at night when shooting at someone far away.

[Stahlseele]

Basically, movement lets you drive the Tron Light Cycles. 90° turns at impossible speeds for an outsider, but on the inside, you don't notice much of anything of the outside world and it's influence on you. aise for when you crash head on into that wall in front of you . .

[UmaroVI]

You are right... No one is leaving the chase scene (Scenario 2) until you reach a straight away with significant stretch, and then the incrementing distance of the Eurocar Westwind becomes a significant factor... at that point, the EW will outpace the CNP by Speed 60 each and every turn, eventually extending out and losing the cops... Once you are in a situation that the faster car will outstrip the pursuers, you are no longer in chase combat...

But I will bite here... Have you ever witnessed a Police Chase where the cops are just sedately pursuing the target for miles and miles on end until the target panics or does something completely stupid? I've seen this on more than one ocassion... In the game, this creates a crazy situation, and I agree with you on that, but there it is... And remember, the benefit of the Multiple opponents and multiple vehicle scenario is that it reduces Stunt Dice Pools... However, there is nothing that says that I Must perform a Stunt in the Turn... the only things that I need to do are Control my Vehicle (Which is not a Stunt) and make an opposed Positioning Test, which is also not a stunt. This particular scenrio you dewcribe means that I will be doing other things to give me an advantage in the execution of my escape.

Here is what I would do if I were the Rigger... I would get on the horn and call up some of my street buddies to start setting up situation ahead of my course to cause difficulties to the Cops/Other bloke until the situation changes... Easily done and is somewhat realistic, assuming that you have access to street budies like a Gang or other group. Or I could activate a Smoke Cystem to give penalties to the Opponents and force a Crash Est upon them... or Drop a Raod Strip (Spike or Zapper) to force the same thing... If not, then it will be a long chase unless something else changes the situation... Not at all unrealistic in the scope of the game...

...and this has what, exactly, to do with the mechanical problem? I don't really care about what sort of cookies you would serve at your magical teaparty in order to ignore the mechanical problem if it came up in your game.

Yes, Multiple Opponents can get crazy, especailly when there are multiple opponents with multiple vehicles. But here is the thing... you generally do not start out with Multiple Opponents in a Chase Scene. In fact, I would classify that as quite rare... you generally develop multiple opponents over the course of the chase if you are careless in your escape. And again, all of these Multiple opponents may or may not be chasing you... which is really what you have to look out for... if you genusinely have multiple opponents, all with multiple vehicles, chasing a singular vehicle, the Singular vehicle will eventually lose. That is just how it works... and mimics reality quite well...

And Honestly, at that point, I take it to the street outside of the vehicle... it is so much easier to hide a person than it is a vehicle... tailor your response to the situation based on what is more feasible...

In the end, Chase Combat is an abstraction to make the scene tense and interesting. If you have already decided that you are going to capture the characters, why bother with a chase scene? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

"It's OK that the multiple opponents rules are FUBAR, because it rarely comes up." Weren't you just talking about how you totally ran not-houseruled multiple opponents chase scenes all the time and they were totally awesome?

The basic problem is this. It is drastically easier to escape from 4 cops than it is to escape from 3 cops and one dude with the same stats as the cops but not working with them. Please explain how this makes any sense, instead of rambling on about unrelated things.

EDIT: By the way... would you try to... stop using so many .... damn ... ellipsis? You ... seem to be ... replacing ... all your ... punctuation ... except for periods .... with ellipsis. Commas ... dashes ... colons ... and semicolons ... are your .... friends. But ... don't use ... Backslash ... he's a .... psychopath.

[Mäx]

Question:
Let us say through clever use of tech you manage to completely negate the total darkness modifier . . would the thermal smoke then become the next biggest and thus applied modifier?

If you have an eye light system and lowlight vision, that negates the full darkness up to 25m, then obviously the problem would now be that your standing in thermal smoke. giving you -2 to vision.
On the other hand if you have thermal vision, then the smoke is actually a bigger problem for you then the full darkness.

[darthmord]

You are right... No one is leaving the chase scene (Scenario 2) until you reach a straight away with significant stretch, and then the incrementing distance of the Eurocar Westwind becomes a significant factor... at that point, the EW will outpace the CNP by Speed 60 each and every turn, eventually extending out and losing the cops... Once you are in a situation that the faster car will outstrip the pursuers, you are no longer in chase combat...

But I will bite here... Have you ever witnessed a Police Chase where the cops are just sedately pursuing the target for miles and miles on end until the target panics or does something completely stupid? I've seen this on more than one ocassion... In the game, this creates a crazy situation, and I agree with you on that, but there it is... And remember, the benefit of the Multiple opponents and multiple vehicle scenario is that it reduces Stunt Dice Pools... However, there is nothing that says that I Must perform a Stunt in the Turn... the only things that I need to do are Control my Vehicle (Which is not a Stunt) and make an opposed Positioning Test, which is also not a stunt. This particular scenrio you dewcribe means that I will be doing other things to give me an advantage in the execution of my escape.

Here is what I would do if I were the Rigger... I would get on the horn and call up some of my street buddies to start setting up situation ahead of my course to cause difficulties to the Cops/Other bloke until the situation changes... Easily done and is somewhat realistic, assuming that you have access to street budies like a Gang or other group. Or I could activate a Smoke Cystem to give penalties to the Opponents and force a Crash Est upon them... or Drop a Raod Strip (Spike or Zapper) to force the same thing... If not, then it will be a long chase unless something else changes the situation... Not at all unrealistic in the scope of the game...

Yes, Multiple Opponents can get crazy, especailly when there are multiple opponents with multiple vehicles. But here is the thing... you generally do not start out with Multiple Opponents in a Chase Scene. In fact, I would classify that as quite rare... you generally develop multiple opponents over the course of the chase if you are careless in your escape. And again, all of these Multiple opponents may or may not be chasing you... which is really what you have to look out for... if you genusinely have multiple opponents, all with multiple vehicles, chasing a singular vehicle, the Singular vehicle will eventually lose. That is just how it works... and mimics reality quite well...

And Honestly, at that point, I take it to the street outside of the vehicle... it is so much easier to hide a person than it is a vehicle... tailor your response to the situation based on what is more feasible...

In the end, Chase Combat is an abstraction to make the scene tense and interesting. If you have already decided that you are going to capture the characters, why bother with a chase scene? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

A good rigger would have tricked out his ride so that he could use classic movie tropes such as...

Hidden ccompartment machine guns (forward & rear facing)
Oil slick sprays (to get rid of pesky chasing vehicles)
Caltrop ejectors (to get rid of pesky chasing vehicles)
Rocket launcher mounts (to get rid of things chasing you or blocking you)

Point is, the good rigger will make the lead chasing vehicles crash so as to take out the rest of the vehicles from the chase.

First rule of an unfair / uneven fight, even the odds and if possible, slant them in your favor.

[Runner Smurf]

There are some problems with the vehicle stats in the rules as well.

My personal favorite is that the GM Heavy Cannon (Arsenal, page 124) is described as "the weapon of choice for main battle tanks" and "is capable of wrecking even a heavily armored vehicle with just one shot." The damage code is 17P, -8 AP.

Let us consider the Ares Roadmaster (Arsenal, pg. 109). Body 16, Armor 16. With a body of 16, it has 16 boxes on its condition monitor. Assume a shot from the GM Heavy Cannon with 4 net hits, for a total of 21P damage, with -8 AP. The Roadmaster rolls 24 dice (16 body + 16 armor - 8 for the AP). At a 4-to-1 buy-in, they get 6 hits, reducing the damage to 15P, and leaving the Roadmaster with 1 box left. (If the GM bothered to roll the dice, the damage would be more like 13, with 3 boxes left.) This is heavily damaged, to be sure, but is most certainly not destroyed. A Citymaster's higher armor means it is less damaged. Even granting that the Master vehicles are heavily armored, they are not main battle tanks. So a weapon said to be a main tank weapon can't even destroy a "riot control vehicle".

It can't even destroy a tractor-trailer, the Nordkapp Zugsmachine with a Trailer (Arsenal pg. 110). Has 24 body, 8 armor. Rolls 24 dice on defense, and takes 15 boxes of damage against the same attack.

It can't even destroy a good-size troll in heavy military armor with some basic mods. With the helmet, he'll have 19 points of ballistic armor (notably, almost what a Citymaster has, and more than a roadmaster). With a body of 10 (normal max), he's rolling 21 dice. If he rolls (doesn't burn edge), he's going to get 7 hits, so he takes 14 boxes of damage. At body ten, he has 13 so he's gone into overflow, but he's not dead. Note that if the shot only got 2 net hits, the damage would be shifted to stun.

Pretty much all of the high end anti-vehicular weapons have this problem. I particularly love that the most powerful weapon against vehicles (22P) is an anti-aircraft missile (the Saab-Saaker AIM-27 Sparrow Hawk).

Speaking of aircraft, some of those stats are just silly. The Aztech Aguilar Attack Helicopter (Arsenal pg. 116) has body 16, armor 16. It's a flying Roadmaster! And it can survive a hit from a main battle tank cannon!

And the difference between motorcycles and cars has always been a bit twitchy to me. Motorcycles are typically much higher acceleration than sports cars, even if their top speeds aren't quite as high. Motorcycle vs. car, the car gains in the twists, the bike gains coming out of the turn. Comparing the two high-end racers, the Westwind and the Mirage, the accel numbers are out of whack. And in general, they seem to get it backwards. Minor point, but it has always bothered me.

Sensors can be a bit wonky too. You can put ultrasonic vision in contact lenses, but, RAW, you can't put it in a vehicle sensor package. I think the RAI were that you could put audio and visual enhancements into a sensor package, but it's not clear.

Magic-wise, banishing only makes sense against unbound low-force spirits. Higher force spirits (6+) or bound spirits (where they get to add their summoner's magic rating), means that can be rolling 8 or more dice fairly often. That results in drain of three or four boxes. While a force 5 Slay Spirit will have a drain value of 1, while a manabolt will have a drain of 2. Sure you might have to cast it twice, but you'll be able to resist the drain fairly easily, and you know what the drain is going to be. The spirit gets lucky, or the spirit turns out to be higher force and bound to a mage with a good magic rating, and suddenly you have to deal with 3 or 4 times the drain rating. The only advantage is that you might get lucky and whack all of the spirits services in one go...but the risk is pretty darn high.

[CeeJay]

What happens to a person standing in a 5x5 m room made of concrete walls when a flashbang grenade explodes in that room?
Honestly, the grenade rules are such a mess, that I really don't know the RAW answer to that question.

Flash-Bang Grenades:
Upon detonation, flash-bang grenades spread a metallic powder out over the area that ignites in contact with
the oxygen in the atmosphere, creating a loud, bright, shocking blast distributed equally over a radius of 10 meters.
Damage Code: 6S; AP -3

So what happens, when there is a barrier that confines the blast radius to less than 10 meters? Than, we have to look at the following rule:

Blast in a Confined Space
When a grenade detonates in a confined space, such as a hallway or room, the gamemaster must first determine whether any barriers (usually walls) stood firm against the explosion. Consult the Blast Against Barriers rules above. If the walls or doors hold up, the blast is channeled.
Otherwise, determine blast effects normally.
If the walls hold, the shock wave reflects off of them, continuing back in the direction from which it came. If this rebounding shock wave maintains enough Damage Value to reach a character, that character is subject to the appropriate blast effect. If the character is struck a second time by the shock wave (once as it headed out and again as it rebounded), the Damage Value of the blast is equal to the combined Damage Value of the two waves.
Theoretically, a detonating grenade could rebound repeatedly off each of the six surfaces in a small, well-built room, raising the effective Damage Value of the blast to a value far higher than the original damage of the grenade. This is known as the “chunky salsa effect.”

Now, obvoiusly this rule was written with the fact in mind, that all damage dealing grenades lose blast effect at certain rates (e.g. -1/m). Except flashbang grenades of course. If we assume that the barrier holds against the initial blast, the blast is reflected and travels back. Since the blast wave never reaches the 10 m radius, where it will mysteriously vanish, one could argue that the blast will rebound a couple of dozen times from each wall reaching obscene damage levels for everyone in the room...

-CJ

[StealthSigma]

It's this giant goto loop, with no exit, and no actual information on HOW you fire a Crossbow or a Bow (or a Slingshot)

It's not a giant loop.

FIRE WEAPON
A character may fire a ready firearm in single-shot, semi-automatic, or burst-fire mode via a Simple
Action (See Firearms, p. 153). If a character has one weapon in each hand, he may fire once with
each weapon by expending one Simple Action (see Attacker Using a Second Firearm, p. 150). Note
that single-shot weapons may be fired only once per Action Phase. Likewise, only one long burst
may be fired in each Action Phase.

--

READY WEAPON
A character may ready a weapon by spending a Simple Action. The weapon may be a firearm, melee
weapon, throwing weapon, ranged weapon, or mounted or vehicular weapon. Readying entails
drawing a firearm from a holster, drawing a throwing or melee weapon from a sheath, picking up
any kind of weapon, nocking an arrow in a bow, or generally preparing any kind of weapon for use.
A weapon must be ready before it can be used.

--

The ranged combat rules also apply to bows and throwing weapons.
Due to their nature, however, some special rules also apply. Projectile
and throwing weapons are detailed in the Street Gear chapter.

--

Bows: A traditional longbow of fiberglass or wood, or a modern
compound-and-pulley bow. Reloading the bow takes one “Ready
Weapon” Action (p. 147).

Crossbows: Modern crossbows are equipped with automatic
reloading devices to allow for faster firing rates (reloading doesn’t re-
quire a Ready Weapon action, unless you happen to be using a museum
piece). Crossbows also feature internal magazines (m) holding up to 4
bolts. Available in Light, Medium, and Heavy sizes.

Statement #1 - Ranged combat rules also apply to bows (crossbows) and throwing weapons.
Statement #2 - Reloading a bow takes a Ready Weapon action (SIMPLE).
Statement #3 - Crossbows do not require a Ready Weapon action but rather use an internal magazine. This means that as a COMPLEX action you can reload your agility worth of bolts into a crossbow.

The following are not interpretations but rather logical extensions of those statements. Complex actions for attacks are -normally- reserved for melee attacks or certain types of ranged firing modes (full auto, suppressive). Since bows and crossbows used the ranged combat rules their attacks would normally be simple actions. All problems stem from the Fire Weapon simple action utilizing the word firearm in the first sentence. However, the note for that section addresses it as weapons rather than firearms, but excludes any weapon which isn't single shot.

The major issue is that projectile weapons aren't listed with a firing mode. This isn't an issue for a bow since it must be single shot by virtue of reloading after each shot. The crossbow has the issue of having four rounds loaded. Is it single shot, semi-auto, burst fire?

RAI is most certain SA for crossbows and SS for bows. That would make bows (Reload Fire) (Reload Fire) (Reload Fire) while Crossbows would be (Fire Fire) (Fire Fire) (Reload) over the same three IPs.

--

What happens to a person standing in a 5x5 m room made of concrete walls when a flashbang grenade explodes in that room?
Honestly, the grenade rules are such a mess, that I really don't know the RAW answer to that question.


So what happens, when there is a barrier that confines the blast radius to less than 10 meters? Than, we have to look at the following rule:


Now, obvoiusly this rule was written with the fact in mind, that all damage dealing grenades lose blast effect at certain rates (e.g. -1/m). Except flashbang grenades of course. If we assume that the barrier holds against the initial blast, the blast is reflected and travels back. Since the blast wave never reaches the 10 m radius, where it will mysteriously vanish, one could argue that the blast will rebound a couple of dozen times from each wall reaching obscene damage levels for everyone in the room...

-CJ

I uh ran into that situation myself.... after taking 8S damage from a sharpshooter.... two goons came up in an elevator I tossed in the flashbang. They got KOed by well over 10S while I took 1S. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[sabs]

a 2mx2m room (makes the math easier)

10M radius explosion

You're talking roughly 24*6S (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) for a lovely 144S damage.
Which doesn't make a ton of sense, although you probably just super saturated the air with the ignitable material and then sparked it. It really SHOULD do more damage, just probably not 144S (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Runner Smurf, you can put ultrasound in a camera, and the camera in the vehicle. Yes, not a *good* solution; you're right, the sensor/visual device rules are wonky.

[StealthSigma]

a 2mx2m room (makes the math easier)

10M radius explosion

You're talking roughly 24*6S (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) for a lovely 144S damage.
Which doesn't make a ton of sense, although you probably just super saturated the air with the ignitable material and then sparked it. It really SHOULD do more damage, just probably not 144S (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

10m radius.

oo
ox
oo
oo

Let's say that the above series of characters models the room for the purpose of bouncing. x indicates where the grenade lands. You would get 5 strikes from the blast wave moving east and west, and 4 strikes from it moving north and south. So the it's probably closer to (6S -3AP) * 18 damage or 108S assuming no resisted damage.

I'm pretty sure I would have been only marginally bothered by what I just did if it was an innocent.

[Stahlseele]

What about cealing and floor?

[StealthSigma]

What about cealing and floor?

Oh jesus. That means that the base damage for a flashbang that goes off at your feet would be (6S -3AP) * 2. Once for the blast going upward and once for it going down and bouncing up. o.O

[Stahlseele]

Yep ^^

[Critias]

Which is why grenade-in-an-elevator is fun. Either the walls, floor, and ceiling withstand the blast and throw it back and forth and back and forth against your enemies a hojillion times...or they don't, and folks fall to their death. Win/win!