Broken Rules., Or where RAW just fails. Options

[Stahlseele]

And even if the elevator walls break, the walls of the elevator shaft don't.
Well, at least not as soon . . technically, with a single grenade in the elevator shaft, you can bring down big parts of a building. place grenade at the bottom, place elevator above, make boom, watch the whole building get it's core blown out . .

[sabs]

Yuo also forgot the initial damage before any bouncing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[StealthSigma]

TL;DR

Unless you can reliably resist 6 stun damage, a flashbang in a small enclosed space will kill you.

[TommyTwoToes]

Oh jesus. That means that the base damage for a flashbang that goes off at your feet would be (6S -3AP) * 2. Once for the blast going upward and once for it going down and bouncing up. o.O

Not only that, but as the blast reflects, it does not just travel straight across the elevator, it also spreads to the sides and reflects again from them...this actually quite the little math problem. Mathleets assemble!

[Doc Chase]

When is the pressure from the blast going to exceed the barrier rating of this elevator?

[TommyTwoToes]

When is the pressure from the blast going to exceed the barrier rating of this elevator?

Never, because it does stun.

[StealthSigma]

Not only that, but as the blast reflects, it does not just travel straight across the elevator, it also spreads to the sides and reflects again from them...this actually quite the little math problem. Mathleets assemble!

It's sufficient to assess damage in the cardinal directions to ensure death.

[TommyTwoToes]

It's sufficient to assess damage in the cardinal directions to ensure death.

But I want to know if we end up with chuncky salsa or creamy.

Set elevator to Frappe.

[Doc Chase]

Never, because it does stun.

...

Sooo...I could conceivably lock the runners in the shower, toss in a flashbang, and have an inescapable deathtrap.

[Stahlseele]

seems like it you evil evil man . .

[Doc Chase]

seems like it you evil evil man . .

Excuse me, I need to make some notes.

*cackle*

[TommyTwoToes]

Excuse me, I need to make some notes.

*cackle*

Force 1 physical barrier + flashbang.

[Doc Chase]

Force 1 physical barrier + flashbang.

I'm thinking of headlines.

CROOK CAUGHT WITH PANTS DOWN - 1 KILLED IN APARTMENT RAID
Civil Liberties Union calls for ban on 'non-lethal' weaponry, claims use 'state-sponsored terrorism'

SEATTLE, UCAS Civil Liberties Union advocates are calling for a crackdown on contract security use of 'non-lethal' weapons and ammunition after an apartment raid on dangerous Shadowrunner Iriquois Plissken Freely turned into a bloodbath.

Knight-Errant authorities raided the downtown loft early Wednesday morning when a 'flashbang' grenade - used to stun and disorient suspects for capture - detonated in the victim's bathroom.

"It was like someone threw a barrel of red dye and raw hamburger all over the walls," said building superintendent Max Dessicus. "Do you know how long that's going to take to clean up?"

Security experts have touted the advantages of what are known as 'non-lethal takedowns' where personnel are able to bring in perpetrators without harming the general populace.

A little known design flaw in the use of incapacitating explosives, however, turns them into 'tools of state-sponsored terrorism,' said CLA director John Turnbull.

"It's no different from locking a prisoner in a cell with a fragmentation grenade," Turnbull said in a press release to Seattle news outlets. "It's worse! At least the grenade will break the walls and leave something for a family to bury."

Flashbang grenades use a concussive force to disorient the target, where an ignition of magnesium powder blinds at the same time. Early use of flashbang grenades reportedly reduced security force casualties by nearly 78% in initial uses.

Use them in a confined space, however, and the concussive force redoubles on itself, creating a chamber where the victim is literally pulvarized in a fraction of a second.

"It's something completely unheard of in weapons technology," said Turnbull. "We don't know why it happens, and that's why we need to stop using them until we can figure it out."

[TommyTwoToes]

In a related story:
" The NTSB has issued a directive requiring all curtains in licesnsed vehicles to be installed with a mechanism to prevent them from fully closing. Also new regulations are in the works to install sensors in government vehicles that will automatically trigger 'blowout' pannels in the sides and back. A NTSB researcher, who requested to remain anonomous, stated that even when blowout pannels are installed, for some reason they just never save you from the flashbang gernades."

[TommyTwoToes]

Force 1 physical barrier + flashbang.

Even more absurd is that chainlink fences have a barrier rating too. So someone caught inside a small section of chainlink would be equally salsafied.

[Jaid]

Where in the rules do you get the idea that you ever apply more then one of the modifiers in the visibility table at one time.
To me atleast it seems perfectly clear that you only ever apply one of then, in that case the full darkness one as its worse.

To determine the attacker’s final dice pool for a ranged attack, add
up all the applicable modifiers and apply that sum to the character’s
Agility + combat skill. The result is the final, adjusted dice pool. If the
dice pool is reduced to 0 or less, the attack automatically fails, unless
the character tries for a Long Shot (p. 61).
The various modifiers are listed on the Ranged Combat Modifier
Table, above, Visibility Table, p. 152, and the Weapon Range Table, p. 151.

go ahead and read it. you add up *all* applicable modifiers, including ones from the visibility table. no mention of only adding one modifier (presumably the worst applicable) from the visibility table, therefore reading that literally you apply all modifiers, including the possibility of visibility modifiers that add up to being worse than zero visibility conditions.

now as i said, it's pretty obvious that if you can't see anything, reducing your ability to see should not have any meaningful effect. but that's not what the rules say. once again, badly written rules are the name of the game here. i know full well that it would be absurd to give someone -10 to hit for being in absolute darkness at the same time as thermal smoke grenades have been thrown. but that's not what the rules tell me to do... hence, it gets listed in the thread about badly written rules.

if we thought these rules made sense or are written the way they are supposed to work, we wouldn't be posting them here. there's no need to tell me that isn't how the rule is intended to work. i know that. that's why i posted it here, in this thread, which just so happens to be about rules that don't work like they're supposed to. if i thought the rule was *supposed* to work like that, i would never have posted it here.

[Stahlseele]

Even more absurd is that chainlink fences have a barrier rating too. So someone caught inside a small section of chainlink would be equally salsafied.

tape grenade to body, wrap body with grenade in chain link fence, tie string to grenade, run for your life.

[Jaid]

tape grenade to body, wrap body with grenade in chain link fence, tie string to grenade, run for your life.

nah, you don't have to run. the fence is containing the blast, remember?

[Stahlseele]

Not on the Ends of the roll ^^

[Mäx]

now as i said, it's pretty obvious that if you can't see anything, reducing your ability to see should not have any meaningful effect. but that's not what the rules say. once again, badly written rules are the name of the game here. i know full well that it would be absurd to give someone -10 to hit for being in absolute darkness at the same time as thermal smoke grenades have been thrown. but that's not what the rules tell me to do... hence, it gets listed in the thread about badly written rules.

I would list that one more under "Lets assume the readers can use their brains and figure this out on their own, so lets not waste word count" and not under broken rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[darthmord]

Force 1 physical barrier + flashbang.

Would that really work though? While the flashbang does Stun damage, it *IS* a force wave.

For the purposes of a chunky salsa effect, shouldn't the barrier rating of the surfaces an explosion's force impacts against still need to equal or exceed the force of the attack (to make the force wave rebound) regardless of whether it is Stun or Physical damage?

[Neraph]

go ahead and read it. you add up *all* applicable modifiers, including ones from the visibility table.

Yes. The only time you use the highest is when you're eyeballing things for time, which is why you figure out the modifiers beforehand.

[Prime Mover]

I had the opportunity get out from behind the screen one day and got to play. We tossed 4 stun grenades into a small room holding the Wendigo we were after. I think our storyteller had different kind of finally in mind.

[TommyTwoToes]

Would that really work though? While the flashbang does Stun damage, it *IS* a force wave.

For the purposes of a chunky salsa effect, shouldn't the barrier rating of the surfaces an explosion's force impacts against still need to equal or exceed the force of the attack (to make the force wave rebound) regardless of whether it is Stun or Physical damage?

I don't think so, otherwise, Feathers the Troll could batter his way through a cement wall with a pillow. Stuff with a barrier rating should be immune to Stun --> I'm looking at you SnS rounds.

[darthmord]

TTT, I was referring to things that have explosive force, like grenades, rockets, and the like.

There's no explodey bits with SnS.