Broken Rules., Or where RAW just fails. Options

[Mordinvan]

Not on the Ends of the roll ^^

Even better, now you have a goo-gun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[StealthSigma]

...

Sooo...I could conceivably lock the runners in the shower, toss in a flashbang, and have an inescapable deathtrap.

That depends.... are said runners female, scantily clad, and bi-curious?

[sabs]

That depends.... are said runners female, scantily clad, and bi-curious?

I think the first two are the only really important qualifiers.

[Doc Chase]

That depends.... are said runners female, scantily clad, and bi-curious?

Well if they're locked in the shower, then it's quite possible that two of the three possible criteria have been met. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[TommyTwoToes]

Well if they're locked in the shower, then it's quite possible that two of the three possible criteria have been met. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But after the Flashbang, you may have some "issues" with shower scenes for a while.

Oh God, the blood, it was everywhere!

[Dumori]

Not on the Ends of the roll ^^

Wait could we use a oil drums as some from of stun-cannon drop a falshbang in aim at opponent watch them die or as a completely insane booby trap? Of corsse you have the lid as the method of fiering no the flashbang.

[sabs]

The solution is not to allow flashbangs to bounce (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
but the whole explosives/grenade section of the game is fubared.

[Stahlseele]

Wait could we use a oil drums as some from of stun-cannon drop a falshbang in aim at opponent watch them die or as a completely insane booby trap? Of corsse you have the lid as the method of fiering no the flashbang.

It's basically a front loader cannon.

[Abigale]

Excuse me, I need to make some notes.

*cackle*

I need to make a note: if offered flashbangs, run away, and start using outdoor camp showers. ;P

[CeeJay]

I don't think so, otherwise, Feathers the Troll could batter his way through a cement wall with a pillow. Stuff with a barrier rating should be immune to Stun --> I'm looking at you SnS rounds.

Barriers can't be immune to stun damage. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to break barriers with your fists... not even a standard glass window...

-CJ

[TommyTwoToes]

Barriers can't be immune to stun damage. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to break barriers with your fists... not even a standard glass window...

-CJ

By the rules, you can't.....but then again this is a discussion on broken rules.

Also there is no glass in Shadowrun, there is only Transparisoy. The slight flexibility is possesses will stop mere fleshy fists from breaking it.

[Yerameyahu]

Nuh uh! Read the barrier rules. Your fists don't do Stun against them, because there's no 'Stun or Physical'. It's just 'DV vs. Barrier'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In fact, flashbangs probably count as 'Explosive', so they do 'Base DV * 2'. Cue the deflation of all these Flashbang-makes-Smooth-Salsa scenarios. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[StealthSigma]

Read the barrier rules. Your fists don't do Stun against them, because there's no 'Stun or Physical'. It's just 'DV vs. Barrier'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In fact, flashbangs probably count as 'Explosive', so they do 'Base DV * 2'. Cue the deflation of all these Flashbang-makes-Smooth-Salsa scenarios. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Except that if the flashbang destroys the elevator car what happens next? You start falling.

[TommyTwoToes]

Read the barrier rules. Your fists don't do Stun against them, because there's no 'Stun or Physical'. It's just 'DV vs. Barrier'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In fact, flashbangs probably count as 'Explosive', so they do 'Base DV * 2'. Cue the deflation of all these Flashbang-makes-Smooth-Salsa scenarios. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That will actually make them do less damage since the walls can't hold the explosion in.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, sure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But that's hardly 'you turn to vapor because this rule is broken'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Your fault for even being in an elevator.

[Stahlseele]

Staircases ain't that much better.

[sabs]

I'm still trying to wrap my brains around the idea that as a passenger of a car, you can try to dodge.
That just seems.. weird.

[TommyTwoToes]

I'm still trying to wrap my brains around the idea that as a passenger of a car, you can try to dodge.
That just seems.. weird.

You can dodge while wearing safety restraints...

[Yerameyahu]

You do take a -2 penalty.

[sabs]

You do take a -2 penalty.

oooh -2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Really it should be a barrier issue. You're shooting through the armored vehicle to get to the person. So you have to punch through the armor, and get to the person. Then you have to punch through the personal armor mod of the car, and then through to the person's personal armor.

And with Vehicles having hardened armor, you need to do more damage than the armor rating to make the passenger make a soak roll.

And I'd allow the driver to make a pilot test to either avoid getting hit altogether or decide which part of the car gets hit.

[Yerameyahu]

-2 to dodge for sitting in a seat seems pretty fair. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It is a strange difference between vehicle damage resistance, barrier rules, and passenger damage resistance. I wouldn't say that vehicles (by RAW) have Hardened Armor, though; they simply ignore minor (Stun) attacks by virtue of being vehicles (no Stun). I *agree* that things would make more sense if they were treated as you suggest: weak attacks bounce off before ever reaching the passenger.

The driver *does* get a 'vehicle dodge' test.

[Walpurgisborn]

The driver *does* get a 'vehicle dodge' test.

That part always seemed kinda stupid to me. Are you seriously telling me that you could dodge bullets with good driving?

[sabs]

-2 to dodge for sitting in a seat seems pretty fair. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It is a strange difference between vehicle damage resistance, barrier rules, and passenger damage resistance. I wouldn't say that vehicles (by RAW) have Hardened Armor, though; they simply ignore minor (Stun) attacks by virtue of being vehicles (no Stun). I *agree* that things would make more sense if they were treated as you suggest: weak attacks bounce off before ever reaching the passenger.

The driver *does* get a 'vehicle dodge' test.

SR4a Page 170

Whenever a vehicle is hit by an attack, it resists damage as normal, rolling
Body + Armor. If the attack’s modified DV does not exceed the
vehicle’s modified Armor, no damage is applied

Isn't that basically hardened armor?

[Yerameyahu]

As much as you can with good jumping and so on. That is, 'yes, within the context of Shadowrun'. You drive defensively, making it hard to aim against you. *shrug*

I agree, sabs. It's because vehicles don't have a Stun track. I dunno when the distinction would matter, but I was just mentioning it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It kind of matters for the fluff; if bullets are going through the vehicle skin, but simply not causing boxes of damage, then passengers can be hit. Given that this is the RAW way it works… (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Messy, yes.

[Jaid]

I would list that one more under "Lets assume the readers can use their brains and figure this out on their own, so lets not waste word count" and not under broken rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

ok, let's try this again: if this rule needs fixing (ie requires the user to ignore what the rules say), then it is clearly broken. you arguing that there is a solution to the problem, even an easily available solution, does not make the fact that there is a problem go away. it merely proves that there is in fact a problem in need of solving.

Nuh uh! Read the barrier rules. Your fists don't do Stun against them, because there's no 'Stun or Physical'. It's just 'DV vs. Barrier'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In fact, flashbangs probably count as 'Explosive', so they do 'Base DV * 2'. Cue the deflation of all these Flashbang-makes-Smooth-Salsa scenarios. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

no, that just means we need to put wheels on the chain link fence before we wrap people in it (so that it's a vehicle) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) beware the outhouse on wheels!