Broken Rules., Or where RAW just fails. Options

[Mäx]

Makes me wonder just how well a fan-driven re-write of the SR4/A rules would go over... and by rewrite, I mean fans going over the sections and clearing up all ambiguity and previous edition referencing.

If they only did what you clarified you mean, it might work out nicely.
If fans actually made a rewrite, most likely not only would you need to reference older editions, but also at least half a dozen completely different RPG lines (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[StealthSigma]

Makes me wonder just how well a fan-driven re-write of the SR4/A rules would go over... and by rewrite, I mean fans going over the sections and clearing up all ambiguity and previous edition referencing.

Have you ever attempted to herd cats?

[suoq]

Makes me wonder just how well a fan-driven re-write of the SR4/A rules would go over... and by rewrite, I mean fans going over the sections and clearing up all ambiguity and previous edition referencing.

Have you been reading "Not Invented Here"? That sounds like today's strip.
http://notinventedhe.re/on/2010-9-14/

[darthmord]

Have you ever attempted to herd cats?

I have four daughters ranging in age from 13 (almost 14) to 3 years old. Getting them all on the same page is for all intents and purposes nearly impossible.

I understand just how impossible my comment is. I have toyed around with doing a revision of my own to clear things up for my satisfaction.

[Smokeskin]

No. I read the rules. I specifically search out for passages I may have missed that are contrary to my conclusion. And I do not ever 'twist' the meaning.

What I do is present the Rules as Written in their literal meaning, typically with the intent of drawing attention to a poorly written rule in the vain hopes that it will actually be changed via Errata. Such poorly written rules just happen to be the topic of this thread.

Let us take a simple example.


Version A
Critter Powers
Physical Powers can't be used from astral.

Manifestation (Physical Power)
Certain astral critters are capable of projecting themselves into
the material world.



Version B
Critter Powers
With exceptions, Physical Powers can't be used from astral.

Manifestation (Physical Power)
Certain astral critters are capable of projecting themselves into
the material world.


Version C
Critter Powers
Physical Powers can't be used from astral.

Manifestation (Physical Power)
As an exception to the rule that Physical Powers can't be used from astral, certain astral critters are capable of projecting themselves into
the material world.


I believe that version A, B, and C above have the same meaning. When a rule as written describes an exception, it is of course an exception. There is no need to spell out "this is an exception".

You believe that the versions have different meaning. Versions B and C are ok, but version A is self contradictory. If a rule as written describes an exception, it needs to be explicitly stated in the general rule that it is just a general and/or exceptions are possible, or that the rule is an exception.


The bow thing, that's a broken rule, we can agree on that. But Materialization and Indirect Combat spells, that's a different story. We both agree that the text describes an exception - you just think that because it doesn't say "this is an exception", it is a contradiction instead.


As an experiment, I've been trying to read the rules your way. It gives a lot more problems. The Choose Target(s) section on pg 183 lists quite a different procedure than described under Indirect Combat spells on page 204 (LOS, bouncing off reflective such, etc.). Determine Effect on pg 183 doesn't say anything about the way for example Invisibility is used, where the caster rolls when casting but resistance tests or comparison to OR is only done later. Obviously, Magic Fingers, Physical Barrier and such spells also need to beat an object's OR, otherwise the object is unaffected by such spells.
Honestly, when you start reading rules like that, lots of stuff stop making sense.

[sabs]

They could also have made Manifestation not a Physical Power but an Astral Power.

OR they could have had a brain and had for spirits:

Stats:
Astral INIT/IP
Movement:
Skills:
Attributes:
Powers:
Optional Powers:

In attributes I would have put things like
Astral Form, Materialization, Possession, Sapience, Infection, endowment.

Things that are not really 'powers' but are descriptions of the types of things they are.
And why do you even have to give spirits the Astral Form Power.. they're god damn spirits, it's understood they exist in the Astral Plane only.

[Neurosis]

Let us take a simple example.


Version A
Critter Powers
Physical Powers can't be used from astral.

Manifestation (Physical Power)
Certain astral critters are capable of projecting themselves into
the material world.



Version B
Critter Powers
With exceptions, Physical Powers can't be used from astral.

Manifestation (Physical Power)
Certain astral critters are capable of projecting themselves into
the material world.


Version C
Critter Powers
Physical Powers can't be used from astral.

Manifestation (Physical Power)
As an exception to the rule that Physical Powers can't be used from astral, certain astral critters are capable of projecting themselves into
the material world.


I believe that version A, B, and C above have the same meaning. When a rule as written describes an exception, it is of course an exception. There is no need to spell out "this is an exception".

You believe that the versions have different meaning. Versions B and C are ok, but version A is self contradictory. If a rule as written describes an exception, it needs to be explicitly stated in the general rule that it is just a general and/or exceptions are possible, or that the rule is an exception.


The bow thing, that's a broken rule, we can agree on that. But Materialization and Indirect Combat spells, that's a different story. We both agree that the text describes an exception - you just think that because it doesn't say "this is an exception", it is a contradiction instead.


As an experiment, I've been trying to read the rules your way. It gives a lot more problems. The Choose Target(s) section on pg 183 lists quite a different procedure than described under Indirect Combat spells on page 204 (LOS, bouncing off reflective such, etc.). Determine Effect on pg 183 doesn't say anything about the way for example Invisibility is used, where the caster rolls when casting but resistance tests or comparison to OR is only done later. Obviously, Magic Fingers, Physical Barrier and such spells also need to beat an object's OR, otherwise the object is unaffected by such spells.
Honestly, when you start reading rules like that, lots of stuff stop making sense.

I just agree with this entire post so goddamn much.

[jakephillips]

I just agree with this entire post so goddamn much.

I also agree.

[Neraph]

Materialization clearly states that it allows astral critters to project into the material world. However, physical powers can't generally be used on the astral.

Fixed that for you.

[LurkerOutThere]

I started to wade through all this and enjoyed some of it. But in the last couple of pages it got into TL:DR range.

My pick of broken rules:

Medkits: Rank 6 Medkits are relatively easy to come by and by Raw have no downside.

If you have a medkit and do not have the skill you can use the medkit rating as your skill. If you have the skill you add the medkits rating as a dicepool benefit.

Now heres the kicker: The maximum amount of damage you can heal with first aid is capped by your skill. In essence a person with no skill and a rank six medkit is a vastly better medic then a person with 3 in first aid and a rating 6 medkit. It's the only thing in the game I can think of that actually punishes you for having a skill and hands out free ranks in a skill like candy.

[Dakka Dakka]

Now heres the kicker: The maximum amount of damage you can heal with first aid is capped by your skill. In essence a person with no skill and a rank six medkit is a vastly better medic then a person with 3 in first aid and a rating 6 medkit. It's the only thing in the game I can think of that actually punishes you for having a skill and hands out free ranks in a skill like candy.

How did you deduce that? As I read the relevant paragraphs, you may use the medkit's dice but since you don't actually have a skill, you can't heal any damage. That's fine with me. You could use the kit for diagnostics though.


I got another broken rule:
Called Shots and firing more than one bullet

By RAW you can call a shot to increase damage on a wide burst, but only if the weapon is in BF mode. A wide short burst or even a narrow one in FA cannot do that. Not even more than enough recoil compensation can change that.
Automatically stopping to fire after three rounds must magically make the previous shot more accurate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[sabs]

How did you deduce that? As I read the relevant paragraphs, you may use the medkit's dice but since you don't actually have a skill, you can't heal any damage. That's fine with me. You could use the kit for diagnostics though.

That makes absolutely no sense.
Especially when you read the description of the R6 medkit.
It's clearly supposed to allow you to heal damage.

[Dakka Dakka]

That makes absolutely no sense.
Especially when you read the description of the R6 medkit.
It's clearly supposed to allow you to heal damage.

Let me see:

The medkit’s rating adds to the dice pool of all First Aid Tests, and replaces the character’s skill if the character doesn’t possess the skill

How can anything that does not exist be replaced?

The maximum damage healable with the First Aid skill is equal to the skill’s rating. First Aid may only be applied to a character once (for that set of wounds), and it may not be applied if the character has been magically healed.
First Aid may also be used to simply diagnose a character’s health, the extent of wounds taken, or the effect of other ailments. The gamemaster sets the threshold as appropriate to the character’s health or affliction, and awards information appropriate to the net hits scored.

So only the skill is the limit not anything that may have replaced the skill.

If the character is untrained, she can still make the test using her own attribute and the device’s rating in place of her
skill

That only means the character can roll LOG+Medkit rating instead of LOG -1 for defaulting with a situational modifier equal to the medkit's rating. It does not confer any healing capabilities.

As for being penalized for having a skill, you forgot that anyone who does not have a medkit suffers an additional -3 dice for not having appropriate tools. If they have the skill though, they can theoretically remove damage boxes.

[Dumori]

Let me see:
How can anything that does not exist be replaced?

So only the skill is the limit not anything that may have replaced the skill.
That only means the character can roll LOG+Medkit rating instead of LOG -1 for defaulting with a situational modifier equal to the medkit's rating. It does not confer any healing capabilities.

As for being penalized for having a skill, you forgot that anyone who does not have a medkit suffers an additional -3 dice for not having appropriate tools. If they have the skill though, they can theoretically remove damage boxes.

I think you can still stableis by defaulting. So perhaps that RAW is RAI but could be clearer.

[sabs]

The medkit’s rating adds to the dice pool of all First Aid Tests, and replaces the character’s skill if the character doesn’t possess the skill

This right there makes it clear that you /can/ heal with a medkit if you have no skill.
Though it is stupid that someone with skill heals for less than someone with no skill.

But making a medkit not heal anyone if you don't have any skill, is equally silly given the description of the item.

Its' clearly a Broken Rule.

[Doc Chase]

This right there makes it clear that you /can/ heal with a medkit if you have no skill.
Though it is stupid that someone with skill heals for less than someone with no skill.

But making a medkit not heal anyone if you don't have any skill, is equally silly given the description of the item.

Its' clearly a Broken Rule.

Is it? If it says it adds to your rating, then the number of boxes you can heal goes up.

So someone with no skill and a Rating 6 caps at 6 boxes of damage, while someone with a rating 6 kit and a skill rank 3 could heal 9.

[sabs]

But it doesn't say it adds to your rating.
It says: It adds to your dice pool. If you have NO skill, then the rating replaces your skill.

That's very different than saying the Rating of the Medkit adds to your rating in First Aid Skill.

[TommyTwoToes]

Is it? If it says it adds to your rating, then the number of boxes you can heal goes up.

So someone with no skill and a Rating 6 caps at 6 boxes of damage, while someone with a rating 6 kit and a skill rank 3 could heal 9.

I think the problem is that RAW, the person with 3 skill and a 6 kit rolls more dice than the person with no skill but caps out at a maximum of 3 boxes healed while the person with no skill who lets the kit do everything caps out at 6 boxes healed (but may not roll enough successes to get 6 boxes).

[Yerameyahu]

The fact that there's this much discussion about how the medkit works validates the position that the rules are broken. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[suoq]

Another thread reminds me: Upgrading Sensors Rating on a vehicle/drone. It's just broken. Yes, there are plenty of sane houserules, but as written, it's critically botched.

I'd also like to nominate "rating" vs. "device rating" and "capacity" (enhancements) vs. "capacity" (sensors).

[Yerameyahu]

Those aren't really broken. They're functional, just unclear; people get confused.

[Dakka Dakka]

Since no one replied to called shots on bursts can I assume a general consensus that limiting the called shot three round bursts in BF is silly?

[Yerameyahu]

I mentioned earlier that a Called Shot on *any* Wide Burst is a silly idea (but I wouldn't call it 'broken' in the sense of this thread). As for your point (3-burst BF != 3-burst FA), I agree that it's dumb, but it's not actually 'broken' in terms of nonfunctional. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

NOT THE POINT.

The rule, as written, does not function.

"Common Sense", "Reasonable Interpretation", etc. are all irrelevant.


The entire purpose of this thread is to identify rules that do not work as written, such as firing a bow, spirit Materialization/Possession, or Indirect Combat spells targeted against non-living objects.

I would just argue that it is a Use Skill Test... Simple and well within the rules... But hey, that is just me I guess...

[sabs]

I would just argue that it is a Use Skill Test... Simple and well within the rules... But hey, that is just me I guess...

what is a use skill test?
I know what a skill use test is, I mean.. what are you saying is a Use Skill Test.


On a different note:
Another candidate for the Badly worded/broken rules line.

Max IP, and IP stacking
If all you own is SR4a you would think that the max IP is 5.
And, there's nothing that says that Cram or K-10 don't stack with Improved Reflexes.