Broken Rules., Or where RAW just fails. Options

[Dakka Dakka]

It says in Arsenal that any Machine Gun can be turning into a minigun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No, it says that any machine gun can be constructed as a minigun. So this is not available as modification. The GM may however design mniniguns in "calibers" of light medium and heavy machineguns.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif) ed by Yerameyahu

[sabs]

That is.. a minor quibble.

But I will bow to your specificity.

[Yerameyahu]

Um. It's exactly what you disagreed with, sabs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I said, 'any miniguns are GM-design-only'. Nothing wrong with that, it's just how it is with the rules we have. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

what is a use skill test?
I know what a skill use test is, I mean.. what are you saying is a Use Skill Test.

An Archery Test... Using Bows and Crossbows...

[Yerameyahu]

That's the old argument, Tymeaus, and it means that it's a *Complex Action*. That's a huge handicap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's the old argument, Tymeaus, and it means that it's a *Complex Action*. That's a huge handicap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I use a Bow from Time to Time (Well, I used to anyway before I had 2 titanium rods put into my back), and I would say that it is a Complex Action...
And yes, I know it is an old argument, but I think it is still valid... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I just mean that that's the reason for the debate: people don't agree that bows *should* be a Complex Action. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) So, when you suggest 'just use Use Skill', you're suggesting something that they've already rejected.

[Saint Sithney]

PPP Vitals Protector is only 1/1 armor, so it can only accept 2 points of Chemical Protection (as it follows the Armor Modifications rules and not the Armor Capacity rules [as it has no Capacity]).

I know I've got the old Arsenal (one weapon mount per 3 body rounded up, lawls) but mine says:

Each piece of armor or clothing can only accept a total number
of modifi cation rating points equal to 6 or the highest number
of its armor ratings (Ballistic or Impact) x 1.5 (round up), whichever
is higher.

Which I take to mean that all pieces of armor, and PPP is armor, have a minimum of 6 mod slots.
Remember that we are talking about ridiculous rules here.

Has anyone mentioned spirits being affected by Toxins yet?

Well, that's not so much a rules issue as it is a language issue. If you define the outer layer of a ball of ectoplasm to be its skin, then contact vectors work on it. Same with a machine or a wall. If skin means only the biological organ, then all mentioned are immune since the toxin has no entry vector. Oh, but if you decide that, then you deal with the fact that body armor certainly isn't skin either, so the only way to use a contact poison or DMSO round is to call a shot to bypass armor. Also, you make the tin man immune to contact toxins and you sure as hell don't need to pay for a chem seal on your milspec armor.

So many problems.

[CeeJay]

I know, toxins were already mentioned a couple of times in this thread...

My main issue with the rules around toxins and drugs is that there are different rules for each. The rules seem to imply that drugs are always used on oneself, whereas toxins are exclusivly used on another person.
Although the border between drugs and toxins is somewhat blurred with all the crazy brainbenders from Arsenal (Slab, I'm looking at you! And Crimson Orchid is also a quite effective immobilizing toxin).

Mainly, drug rules lack an onset time. Right now, drugs are taking effect instantly, which is simply ridiculous.

CJ

[codemonkey_uk]

Having enjoyed archery in the past, in my opinion "Fire Bow" could only be a Simple Action if "String Arrow" is also a separate simple action. Anyone with allusions otherwise is entertaining a Legolas fantasy, and should remember that Draw Weapon and Load Clip are also Simple Actions. For a player desperate to play that, a house-rule, GM discretion, specific skill or adept power to string an arrow and fire the bow as a single simple action (with a test, with consequences for failure, similar to "Quick Draw" for pistols) *could* make sense for a Legolas archer-adept build, but really, it's a bit silly to say that stringing an arrow, and loosing the bolt are equivalent to pulling a trigger.

[sabs]

Having enjoyed archery in the past, in my opinion "Fire Bow" could only be a Simple Action if "String Arrow" is also a separate simple action. Anyone with allusions otherwise is entertaining a Legolas fantasy, and should remember that Draw Weapon and Load Clip are also Simple Actions. For a player desperate to play that, a house-rule, GM discretion, specific skill or adept power to string an arrow and fire the bow as a single simple action (with a test, with consequences for failure, similar to "Quick Draw" for pistols) *could* make sense for a Legolas archer-adept build, but really, it's a bit silly to say that stringing an arrow, and loosing the bolt are equivalent to pulling a trigger.

I always envisioned Shooting a bow to be:
Simple action: String Arrow, Draw Bow
Simple action: Take Aim
Free action(maybe single action): Loose Arrow

[Yerameyahu]

Personally, I don't see why 'no listed onset' should mean 'instant'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's very munchkin-y to assume the best thing for oneself. Everything should be at *least* 1 Combat Turn, and a few could be longer. But I don't disagree that the lack of information is a Broken Rule™.

Um, codemonkey_uk: Ready Weapon *is* a separate Simple Action. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's why people think it's unfair to require 1 Simple Action + 1 Complex per shot. Take Aim is also another separate Simple Action, but not a required one (for bows or firearms alike).

[Neraph]

The way my game works archery is it is a Simple Action to Ready Weapon, and another to fire. So:

Simple Action: Nock and draw.
Simple Action: Fire.

This can be sped up 50% by using Krav Maga's "Ready Weapon as Free Action."

EDIT: I guess I use the "Use Simple Object" rules for the Simple Action to fire. I had assumed that's how it worked.

My main debate however was that, as a broken rule, you can't fire a crossbow as Fire Weapon specifically mentions firearms, which a crossbow is not.

[Jaid]

I use a Bow from Time to Time (Well, I used to anyway before I had 2 titanium rods put into my back), and I would say that it is a Complex Action...
And yes, I know it is an old argument, but I think it is still valid... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

don't forget, it's a simple action to *ready* the bow... so you're saying it's a complex action to release the string?

[Neraph]

don't forget, it's a simple action to *ready* the bow... so you're saying it's a complex action to release the string?

I didn't know that a curved piece of wood with a string on it was a complex object.

[Jaid]

I didn't know that a curved piece of wood with a string on it was a complex object.

the action in question was use skill, i believe.

[Yerameyahu]

As a (poor) alternative to Use Simple Object, yes.

[Doc Chase]

I didn't know that a curved piece of wood with a string on it was a complex object.

Spoken like someone who's never actually tried archery before.

[darthmord]

Spoken like someone who's never actually tried archery before.

As someone who has competitively shot both bows and crossbows, the most complex part of them is the skill use. The weapon itself isn't all that complex (though they can be if you go for the bells & whistles). Native American and other aboriginal bows were basically nothing more than sticks with strings by today's standards. Yet those same bows were exceedingly deadly in the hands of a skilled user. Replace the word 'bow' with a weapon of your choice and the sentence remains true. The deadliness is from the skill of the user, not the weapon.

When you have an arrow sticking out of you, your least important concern is the quality of the bow that was used.

Yes, there is engineering that goes into the design & creation of the weapon, but honestly, they are NOT terribly complex devices. Your average padlock is far more complex.

Gamewise, I can however see taking a shot being a single action. Once the shot is ready, you simply point & shoot. Unlike a firearm which typically have some sort of auto-loader that reloads the firearm for you as part of the shooting cycle, you have to manually reload the bow/crossbow.

So a 'Take Aim' action followed by a 'Fire Weapon' action. Per pass, you should only be able to fire the bow/crossbow once.

In the last archery tournament I was in (a couple of months ago), we had a speed shooting challenge. Accuracy & Speed. The best archer we had was able to send 5 arrows down range in 10 seconds with 4/5 shots hitting the target, 2 were bulls eyes and 2 were next ring out; overall the archer had ~6" grouping. Before anyone uses real life to model the game, keep in mind that this shooter had kneeled, had arrows placed in the ground for quick / easy access such that upon shooting, they leaned forward, pulled the arrow from the ground and drew all in one motion. They would not have been able to accomplish this speed from a quiver on their hip or over the shoulder (by the archer's own admission).

[IKerensky]

Arsenal, vehicules and weapons amelioration.

The tables list the cost of materials but there is no cost indicated for buying thoses ameliorations from a NPC nor getting them at Character Creation as the cost of the plans aren't included and extended test are required. Also there is no Avaliability for the finished amelioration, just for the materials.

And before telling me the table list the cost, read the tables legends under the cost entry.

[Doc Chase]

As someone who has competitively shot both bows and crossbows, the most complex part of them is the skill use. The weapon itself isn't all that complex (though they can be if you go for the bells & whistles). Native American and other aboriginal bows were basically nothing more than sticks with strings by today's standards. Yet those same bows were exceedingly deadly in the hands of a skilled user. Replace the word 'bow' with a weapon of your choice and the sentence remains true. The deadliness is from the skill of the user, not the weapon.

The complexity I see from the weapon is firing properly. Firearms replaced bows because they're easier to train people on, IIRC. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) This is why I don't have a terrible issue with it being a Complex to fire - I'm not too sure that a guy is going to reliabily get two arrows out in three seconds.

When you have an arrow sticking out of you, your least important concern is the quality of the bow that was used.

Quality of the arrow, maybe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yes, there is engineering that goes into the design & creation of the weapon, but honestly, they are NOT terribly complex devices. Your average padlock is far more complex.

Gamewise, I can however see taking a shot being a single action. Once the shot is ready, you simply point & shoot. Unlike a firearm which typically have some sort of auto-loader that reloads the firearm for you as part of the shooting cycle, you have to manually reload the bow/crossbow.

So a 'Take Aim' action followed by a 'Fire Weapon' action. Per pass, you should only be able to fire the bow/crossbow once.

Yes! I agree completely. I believe currently it's a 'Fire Weapon' 'Ready Weapon'. Are you suggesting that the 'Fire Weapon' action include nocking another arrow? Or that the 'Take Aim' do the same?

In the last archery tournament I was in (a couple of months ago), we had a speed shooting challenge. Accuracy & Speed. The best archer we had was able to send 5 arrows down range in 10 seconds with 4/5 shots hitting the target, 2 were bulls eyes and 2 were next ring out; overall the archer had ~6" grouping. Before anyone uses real life to model the game, keep in mind that this shooter had kneeled, had arrows placed in the ground for quick / easy access such that upon shooting, they leaned forward, pulled the arrow from the ground and drew all in one motion. They would not have been able to accomplish this speed from a quiver on their hip or over the shoulder (by the archer's own admission).

I recall Agincourt is one of the penultimate examples of effective archery, and they did do the same thing. Stuck their arrows in the ground, and went crazy as the French heavy cav thundered down the hill to meet them.

[sabs]

Agincourt is actually more stupid.

The French Heavy Cav thundered up the hill and charged into the heavy infantry at the center.
While Rows of English Longbowmen were in a V formation on either side of the Heavy Infantry violating the French Cav.

Really, it was the stupidest thing in the universe. I'm French and it is sad to me how stupid they were.

If you make archery a complex action to fire, then you are shooting an arrow less than once every 3 seconds, reliably.

There are 4 discreet actions in firing a bow
Knock
Draw
Aim
Fire

Expert Archers learn how to do Knock, Draw, Aim in one fluid motion.And then fire.

Now sure how you represent that in the shadowrun system.

[Darkeus]

NOT THE POINT.

The rule, as written, does not function.

"Common Sense", "Reasonable Interpretation", etc. are all irrelevant.


The entire purpose of this thread is to identify rules that do not work as written, such as firing a bow, spirit Materialization/Possession, or Indirect Combat spells targeted against non-living objects.

It functions just fine.

Eh, everything does not have to be laid out to be used or understood.

Or maybe I have been playing too long and have good comprehension.

Whatever, I still rule it like it has been for years. Simple action to ready, simple action to shoot. It works, and is functional, YMMV.

[sabs]

It functions just fine.

Eh, everything does not have to be laid out to be used or understood.

Or maybe I have been playing too long and have good comprehension.

Whatever, I still rule it like it has been for years. Simple action to ready, simple action to shoot. It works, and is functional, YMMV.

The fact that we've had several pages of people arguing how it /should/ work. Implies that it doesn't work just fine (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Doc Chase]

Agincourt is actually more stupid.

The French Heavy Cav thundered up the hill and charged into the heavy infantry at the center.
While Rows of English Longbowmen were in a V formation on either side of the Heavy Infantry violating the French Cav.

Really, it was the stupidest thing in the universe. I'm French and it is sad to me how stupid they were.

You're more stupid! Haaar! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

If you make archery a complex action to fire, then you are shooting an arrow less than once every 3 seconds, reliably.

Well, yes. Someone at the top of their game, with arrows already ready to pull to fire close at hand is shooting once every 2 seconds on average. Making it a complex means an individual is taking about what I imagine the average would be.

There are 4 discreet actions in firing a bow
Knock
Draw
Aim
Fire

Expert Archers learn how to do Knock, Draw, Aim in one fluid motion.And then fire.

Now sure how you represent that in the shadowrun system.

A, uh. Complex Action? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)