Broken Rules., Or where RAW just fails. Options

[sabs]

You're more stupid! Haaar! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


Well, yes. Someone at the top of their game, with arrows already ready to pull to fire close at hand is shooting once every 2 seconds on average. Making it a complex means an individual is taking about what I imagine the average would be.



A, uh. Complex Action? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

So in your mind:
From taking Arrow from quiver/ground to firing is 1 complex action?

What happens if I knock my arrow, and draw, but don't fire yet. I'm prepared to fire, but holding the fire action? How does that play out.
Why is shooting a crossbow with a clip a complex action?

[Doc Chase]

So in your mind:
From taking Arrow from quiver/ground to firing is 1 complex action?

You're pulling the arrow from the quiver, nocking, draw, aim, and loose. Basically, you've got a Ready Weapon and Fire Weapon in one action. I think that'd qualify for Complex (and save the simple to possibly do something else, hey?).

What happens if I knock my arrow, and draw, but don't fire yet. I'm prepared to fire, but holding the fire action? How does that play out.

A bit of handwavium on my part, probably. It'd be a Ready Weapon - a simple, and the firing would then be Simple again since you're already set to rock 'n roll. I'm assuming your pass would go something like - Ready Weapon, pass ends, new pass, Fire Weapon, Complex to reload/fire again. Yes?

Essentially it means your fire rate goes 1/pass 2/pass 1/pass. Not exactly overpowered if you're using a bow, and brings you to a fire rate I'd expect of a speed-freak with a Legolas complex.

Why is shooting a crossbow with a clip a complex action?

Gotta pull the string back somehow, I assume. If it's a repeater, I'd treat it as a regular firearm.

[Neraph]

Spoken like someone who's never actually tried archery before.

Actually, I have a bad habit of shooting my own arrows in the bullseye from 60 yards. That's why I believe it's a Use Simple Object test. It is much, much easier to draw and fire a bow, especially with training, as it is to fire a crossbow.

[Neraph]

You're pulling the arrow from the quiver, nocking, draw, aim, and loose. Basically, you've got a Ready Weapon, Aim Weapon, and Fire Weapon in one action. I think that'd qualify for Complex (and save the simple to possibly do something else, hey?).

So you require an Aim Weapon (you mean Take Aim?) for bows but not for other firearms?

[Doc Chase]

So you require an Aim Weapon (you mean Take Aim?) for bows but not for other firearms?

I've never had any of my players use bows, so this is entirely theoretical.

Are you saying you aren't aiming when you point a gun at somebody? Just because aiming is part of the firing process doesn't mean we're using Take Aim actions unless we're taking special care to.

If you like, I can edit my post to remove the action from the Complex, as to not confuse people further.

Edit: There, I've pulled it out.

[Yerameyahu]

Darkeus, the point is that we're discussing rules that, RAW, don't function. We all know that you can force them to work, often easily, but the discussion is about Broken Rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Re: bows, let's not assume that aiming is a mandatory action; it's not for firearms, after all. So, Ready Weapon (simple) is already required, Take Aim (simple) is optional: the question remains whether 'Fire' should be simple or complex.

You're deciding between requiring 2 Simple or (3 Simple); 3 seems rather punitive, no?

[Doc Chase]

Darkeus, the point is that we're discussing rules that, RAW, don't function. We all know that you can force them to work, often easily, but the discussion is about Broken Rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Re: bows, let's not assume that aiming is a mandatory action; it's not for firearms, after all. So, Ready Weapon (simple) is already required, Take Aim (simple) is optional: the question remains whether 'Fire' should be simple or complex.

You're deciding between requiring 2 Simple or (3 Simple); 3 seems rather punitive, no?

How many shots can you take with a single semiautomatic pistol per initiative pass? Two, yes?

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, 1 per Simple Action. Bows are more than twice as slow, because they not only can only fire once, but they also use your other action to Ready. In this aspect, SS guns are still faster than bows. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm not saying they shouldn't be from some kind of realism perspective, but that it's punitive from a game perspective: not only would you be firing once per three Simple actions (1 Simple + 1 Complex), but you'd be monopolizing all your actions as well.

[sabs]

Now you could use Ready Weapon as your knock/draw action. That woudl fit perfectly within the rules.

[Stahlseele]

Well, if you're not an adept with nimble fingers and multi tasking and/or that one martial arts thingie . .

[Doc Chase]

Yes, 1 per Simple Action. Bows are more than twice as slow, because they not only can only fire once, but they also use your other action to Ready. In this aspect, SS guns are still faster than bows. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Good! I'm not going crazy.

What I'm proposing is that the Ready Weapon action and the Fire Weapon action are combined into a Complex, leaving the Simple. Then you could Ready again and fire two shots the next pass.

[X-Kalibur]

Two. You get 2 simple actions per pass.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, don't forget that, Doc Chase: You get 1 Free + 2 Simple, or 1 Free + 1 Complex (or trade Simple for Free, but that's not relevant here). If firing a bow is Complex, you can't do anything else.

[Doc Chase]

Yeah, don't forget that, Doc Chase: You get 1 Free + 2 Simple, or 1 Free + 1 Complex (or trade Simple for Free, but that's not relevant here). If firing a bow is Complex, you can't do anything else.

...

So I am going crazy. How the hell are people getting a long/short burst done in a round then?

[sabs]

...

So I am going crazy. How the hell are people getting a long/short burst done in a round then?

Long bursts aren't complex actions are they?
Long bursts only take a simple action, but only one can be fired in an action phase.
Short Bursts are also a simple action.

So you can do 1 long, 1 short in an action phase.

[Doc Chase]

Well hell. I'd still make it so the Complex covered both the load and the firing for bows.

If you're only doing one of the two, it'd be a Simple.

[Yerameyahu]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Right: Ready is Simple, and Fire is Simple. It just doesn't *explicitly* say that in the rules. Hehe.

[Doc Chase]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Right: Ready is Simple, and Fire is Simple. It just doesn't *explicitly* say that in the rules. Hehe.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif) I have my eye on you.

On another note, I'm feeling rather stupid for basing my idea on a mechanic that I had wrong. News at eleven.

[Dumori]

Mulittasking is a bit broken what free actions are there that you would use not in combat time? Texting and speaking are it. how ever if your GM lets it just give you freeatcins then you can fire bows at SA speeds though its quite pricy to not be totally broken.

[Yerameyahu]

Dumori, can you explain that last sentence? How would Free Actions help? Are you assuming Quick Draw/etc.?

[Dumori]

You can take a martial art to ready as a free action. Thus with more free actions you can ready 2 times and fire two times a phase.

[Yerameyahu]

Right, that's what I thought. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You didn't mention it initially, so I wanted to make sure. I think that an Adept with Martial Arts *should* be expected to do that kind of thing (but that would be a house rule); however, I probably wouldn't allow something called 'multitasking' to give *non-mental* actions. Use it for Observe in Detail (as intended). Yes, it's probably another 'weak' Adept power, but consider the alternative: free physical actions might be *too* powerful.

Here are some Free Actions that you'd *really* want to use in many situations (and remember that you only get 1 normally): Called Shot, Drop Prone, Change Device Mode, Run, or Eject Smartgun Clip. Hell, Multitasking is probably worth it just for being able to Call two shots per IP, and what if you'd also like to Run? What if you took Krav Maga for Free Take Aim (who're we kidding: of course you did)?

Now, maybe Change Mode and Eject Clip are mental enough, but do we really want people making multiple Aimed Called Shots?

[Dumori]

Right, that's what I thought. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You didn't mention it initially, so I wanted to make sure. I think that an Adept with Martial Arts *should* be expected to do that kind of thing, first, but second, I probably wouldn't allow something called 'multitasking' to give *non-mental* actions. Use it for Observe in Detail (as intended), or for easing your Free Action economy: there are a lot of Free Actions besides speaking.

Here are some Free Actions that you'd *really* want to use in many situations (and remember that you only get 1 normally): Called Shot, Drop Prone, Change Device Mode, Run, or Eject Smartgun Clip. Hell, Multitasking is probably worth it just for being able to Call two shots per IP, and what if you'd also like to Run? What if you took Krav Maga for Free Take Aim (who're we kidding: of course you did)?

How ever it is none combat related tasks only. So it communication and observe in detail only by RAW as reloading swapping smart gun modes are all combat related. In fact one could say that it also limits what you can observe or talk about with those actions it better no be the combat going on. You have comunitcaion drop prone and run only when combat isn't involve its a pretty weird power taken at face value.

[Yerameyahu]

Right, I edited my post to be clearer that I was giving examples of how that would be *over* powered. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Sorry for the confusion.

You're right: I agree that it's odd, but I don't think the solution would be allowing extra physical Free actions. Instead, drop the annoying 'combat' clause and simply say '1 extra mental action, including Observe, Change Mode, Eject Clip, etc.'.

[Dumori]

Right, I edited my post to be clearer that I was giving examples of how that would be *over* powered. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Sorry for the confusion.

You're right: I agree that it's odd, but I don't think the solution would be allowing extra physical Free actions. Instead, drop the annoying 'combat' clause and simply say '1 extra mental action, including Observe, Change Mode, Eject Clip, etc.'.

I'd drop the combat clause and up its price abit. Other wise its practicality useless when are you in combat time when not in combat? Hardly ever for most people bar hackers.