Broken Rules., Or where RAW just fails. Options

[Yerameyahu]

Well, nothing wrong with having niche and specialty powers, per se. If it simply gave extra actions, that's getting into Wires territory. The action economy is a balance issue (per my examples above), so it'd have to be appropriately expensive; suddenly, it'd be a must-have power, for Take Aim/Called Shot alone.

[sabs]

Well, nothing wrong with having niche and specialty powers, per se. If it simply gave extra actions, that's getting into Wires territory. The action economy is a balance issue (per my examples above), so it'd have to be appropriately expensive; suddenly, it'd be a must-have power, for Take Aim/Called Shot alone.

Don't forget all the Matrix Free actions

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I just mean that that's the reason for the debate: people don't agree that bows *should* be a Complex Action. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) So, when you suggest 'just use Use Skill', you're suggesting something that they've already rejected.

I don't know... Shooting 1-2 Arrows in 3 Seconds is pretty damn good, especially if they are on Target...
But I do take your point... Anyways, that is how I roll for Archery anyways... Complex Action to Ready/Fire...

[Dahrken]

I don't know... Shooting 1-2 Arrows in 3 Seconds is pretty damn good, especially if they are on Target...

Yeap, it's pretty good for aimed shooting. When people quote the rate of fire that could be achieved in volley fire, they often conveniently forget it was targeting an army rather thant asingle human-sized target...

[Ragewind]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but nowhere in the rules are inanimate objects immune to toxins or drugs. Nothing offers them any sort of immunity or rules exemption. To be fair the majority of the toxins/drugs/whatever don't really affect vehicles/drones since they might not have a particular stat that doesn't mean strange things can't happen.

Let's take some K-10 and mix it with DSMO. Place the mixture in a capsule round and shoot a few cars. What ends up happening is they do not get any of the bonus stuff (such as the extra strength or pain tolerance) but when the duration wears off they explode in a grand fireball as they take something like 18P unresisted. Or what is that one magical drug that forces you to astrally perceive? Imagine that drone being dual natured for the duration....

It's really funny when you think about it.

[Dumori]

Actually you can't posion rock and such. There's some really obscure clause some place. Tutori found it trying to work out if the above was true or not. Also k-10 wouldn't work I'm quite sure its stun damage still.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually you can't posion rock and such. There's some really obscure clause some place. Tutori found it trying to work out if the above was true or not. Also k-10 wouldn't work I'm quite sure its stun damage still.

Yep... Vehicles do not take Stun Damage... whether it is 18 Stun ro 1800 Stun...

[Dumori]

Yep... Vehicles do not take Stun Damage... whether it is 18 Stun ro 1800 Stun...

Some toxins do P; I had already stated that fact I'm sure.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Some toxins do P; I had already stated that fact I'm sure.

Must of Missed it... But toxins only affect living systems... so, it is really a moot point anyways... Ironically, Spirits are indeed living systems... Vehicles, unfortunately, are not...

Common Sense does not evaporate in a vaccuum after all...

[Yerameyahu]

Well, the spirit part of that it still up for debate. 'Living systems' is far too vague to be an accurate condition for toxins.

[Ragewind]

Actually you can't posion rock and such. There's some really obscure clause some place. Tutori found it trying to work out if the above was true or not. Also k-10 wouldn't work I'm quite sure its stun damage still.

Oh sorry was thinking of oxygenated fluorocarbons.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, the spirit part of that it still up for debate. 'Living systems' is far too vague to be an accurate condition for toxins.

Perhaps, But I am sure that Common Sense can prevail here, what do you think? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Oh sorry was thinking of oxygenated fluorocarbons.

Can't treat something with a Blood Treatment that does not actually have any Blood though... Kind of makes sense that way, don't you think? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

Perhaps, But I am sure that Common Sense can prevail here, what do you think? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not many folks take that Quality.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)



-karma

[Neurosis]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but nowhere in the rules are inanimate objects immune to toxins or drugs. Nothing offers them any sort of immunity or rules exemption. To be fair the majority of the toxins/drugs/whatever don't really affect vehicles/drones since they might not have a particular stat that doesn't mean strange things can't happen.

Let's take some K-10 and mix it with DSMO. Place the mixture in a capsule round and shoot a few cars. What ends up happening is they do not get any of the bonus stuff (such as the extra strength or pain tolerance) but when the duration wears off they explode in a grand fireball as they take something like 18P unresisted. Or what is that one magical drug that forces you to astrally perceive? Imagine that drone being dual natured for the duration....

It's really funny when you think about it.

I know that this is the dumb rules topic, but I think this post is all dumb, no rules. More generally:

I am sorry if this counteracts the point of this topic, but does RAW really have to cover things that are totally basic common sense like that a car cannot be on drugs? Is that really the responsibility of the RAW? I feel, as a player, a GM, and a game designer, that it should not be. That the RAW is an addition to basic, straight-up common sense and not a replacement of it. I know that as a game designer, I would find it a big waste of my time to have to write things like "inanimate objects cannot be poisoned or on drugs" which would be self-obvious to any player who was doing anything but specifically trying to think of convoluted ways in which the rules were "broken". I'm just saying. I feel the same way about things like not giving grunts language skills.

As a matter of fact, the only fuck up in RAW that I actually see as being the fault of the devs is the thing about spirits not being able to manifest. That seems like a glaring oversight. But even that can be overcome with the slightest bit of common sense...which, I know is not the point of this topic.

[Dakka Dakka]

If there ar real world equivalents (i.e. cars) self evident facts need not be mentioned expressis verbis, but if there aren't (i.e Spirits, Magic etc.) you cannot assume all sorts of things because you think that is the way they should work.

[sabs]

If there ar real world equivalents (i.e. cars) self evident facts need not be mentioned expressis verbis, but if there aren't (i.e Spirits, Magic etc.) you cannot assume all sorts of things because you think that is the way they should work.

vehicles and drones being immune to drugs makes sense.

What about biodrones?
Spirits?
It would be nice to have the questionable cases specifically explained.

[Badmoodguy88]

Probably it is not in the rules because acids are covered under the same rules. Also you could come up with poisons that affect vehicles. Sugar in the gas tank anyone?

I can imagine a gas grenade that meant to put out fires by inhibiting combustion being used to stop the engine of an internal combustion engine. That would be poison.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, not biodrones. Those are just animals. But, yes, spirits is kinda the big one. We also shouldn't have to find the 'rules' for spirits hidden in a splatbook under the barely-usable Free Spirit PC section, either.

No, I don't think those would qualify as poison. It's good thinking, but it doesn't seem like those tactics really require the whole Vector/Penetration/Power/Onset/etc. setup.

[Neraph]

As a matter of fact, the only fuck up in RAW that I actually see as being the fault of the devs is the thing about spirits not being able to manifest. That seems like a glaring oversight. But even that can be overcome with the slightest bit of common sense...which, I know is not the point of this topic.

They can Manifest just fine. They can't Materialize, Possess, or Inhabit, per (strict) RAW. Confusing Materialization and Manifestation is a dangerous thing to do because then your mages become super-powerful.

[Saint Sithney]

Actually you can't posion rock and such. There's some really obscure clause some place. Tutori found it trying to work out if the above was true or not. Also k-10 wouldn't work I'm quite sure its stun damage still.

Yeah, I went over that a little earlier.

The point of contention was vectors.

The counterpoint was that, if you follow a strict interpretation of contact vectors, then you have to call a shot to bypass armor or capsule rounds and squirt guns are ineffective.


As to the benefit of Multi-tasking, it's not a straight up numerical benefit as much as a character defining trait that's up to the GM to convey. Applying numbers for a moment, look at it this way. It makes Observe in Detail a free action and gives you a 2nd free action per IP. Now, a normal person without Multi-tasking can observe 2 things per IP with two simple actions, whereas a person with Multi-tasking can observe 4 things per IP. That's twice as many per pass. combine with always-on IP enhancement like improved reflexes, and a deductive (also RP-heavy) power like Analytics, and suddenly you've got magical Sherlock Holmes. He walks into a room, takes in everything in seconds and then begins connecting them together into a working framework.

It's really up to the GM to make that apparent though, since rolling 12-16 Perception checks every 3 seconds is a ridiculous waste of time. If instead you assume that the character has bought (say 4) hits on every object to cross his sight, then you're really starting to see what multitasking actually is. Perfect awareness.

[Yerameyahu]

Well. *Better* awareness. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Saint Sithney]

Superhuman for sure.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, only compared to normals. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You miscalculated the number of Observes (3 total, not 4, because you can't trade 1 Simple for 2 Frees). So, you're 50% more observant than an *unaugmented* person, unless you're also augmented. In that case, you're just 50% more observant than someone with equal IPs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) So, yes, 'superhuman', but only sorta kinda.

Anyway, I'm just goofing around. It's definitely intended as an 'observant dude' power, but there are certainly other creative uses.

[Saint Sithney]

An extra Free Action may be taken in place of a Simple Action (so the character would get two Free
Actions and one Simple Action, or three Free Actions, instead of one Free and two Simple Actions).

So, you get 2 free actions from the quality, and trade 2 simple actions for two more. Total of 4. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)