Broken Rules., Or where RAW just fails. Options

[sabs]

What about the Archery description?

And that's what they changed about vehicles. Makes'um all but immune to small-arms fire when done proper.

ARCHERY (AGILITY)
Archery governs the use of muscle powered projectile weapons.
Default: Yes
Skill Group: None
Specialization: Bows, Crossbows, Slingshots

Can you count the number of painful issues with THAT statement.

Projectile Weapons
The ranged combat rules also apply to bows and throwing weapons.
Due to their nature, however, some special rules also apply. Projectile
and throwing weapons are detailed in the Street Gear chapter.

Projectile Weapon Types
The Projectile Weapons Table (below) lists some of the projectile
weapons available in the Shadowrun universe. Note that bows are purchased
with a specified Minimum Strength rating which may affect a
character’s use of the bow (see Bows, p. 315).

Bows: A traditional longbow of fiberglass or wood, or a modern
compound-and-pulley bow. Reloading the bow takes one “Ready
Weapon” Action (p. 147).

It's this giant goto loop, with no exit, and no actual information on HOW you fire a Crossbow or a Bow (or a Slingshot)

[Doc Chase]

Ye gods. I could swear it was a Complex to fire, but I don't remember which rules I was reading.

Edit: Well wait. It says ranged combat rules apply to them. So a Simple to fire, and a Ready to reload.

[Neraph]

Rofl, I just noticed almost all the NPCs are naked except for an armor vest!

Most of them are encumbered by their armor also.

i have to ask. In you games can a crossbows be shot, as in used, not as in shot-at? Or, is every crossbow in SR have the trigger welded fast upon creation?

Just because I point out how the RAW fails or works counter to how it is commonly perceived does not mean I do not play by RAI.

[Dumori]

What about the Archery description?

And that's what they changed about vehicles. Makes'um all but immune to small-arms fire when done proper.

But if its burst fire or explosives the passengers still take the damage so unless its a drone it wont be running for much longer.

[sabs]

Ye gods. I could swear it was a Complex to fire, but I don't remember which rules I was reading.

Edit: Well wait. It says ranged combat rules apply to them. So a Simple to fire, and a Ready to reload.

potentially..
except that like I listed in the first quote. The Simple to fire says it's specifically for firearms.
Fire Weapon talks about firing a ready Firearm and then gives a page number that lists Firearms (and not bows)

I agree with you that it's the most logical ruling. But the rules are /incredibly/ vague as to be broken. Which is what this thread is actually talking about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[sabs]

But if its burst fire or explosives the passengers still take the damage so unless its a drone it wont be running for much longer.

Yeah.. if you aim at the character the character gets to add the vehicle's armor rating to his own for soaking. Unless someone uses a called shot.
But if you just shoot at the car, then hey! magic the passengers take full damage(as does the car) (wait what?)

[Critias]

On the bows/crossbows front?

There's a line on page 155 that specifically says "The Ranged Combat rules also apply to bows and projectile weapons." I'd say between that, Ready Weapon, and Fire Weapon (or Use Simple Object if you're hung up on the word "firearm" being under the "Fire Weapon" rule)...you should be able to figure it out.

[Dumori]

Most of them are encumbered by their armor also.


Just because I point out how the RAW fails or works counter to how it is commonly perceived does not mean I do not play by RAI.

This is the point of this thread some of these things are just dumb rules that must be house ruled to work. Thus we compile them tell CGL the etarata it please. Then we have a better game system overall I mean some of these things are simple to fix other might need full rewrites but its better than every table in the world playing difrently even more so when we have SRM that has to play completely RAW not that it can.

One more thing to add the extended test get -1 dice each roll is ok for some but in the grand scale of things makes most things impossible and is also illogical in some cases. Sure It means you can do some thing if you spend for ever on it but oddly enough you tend to be able to IRL ignoring its illogicalness it renders some test in the books imposable no-matter what or in one a few cases needed you to have your magic stupidly high.

[Neraph]

On the bows/crossbows front?

There's a line on page 155 that specifically says "The Ranged Combat rules also apply to bows and projectile weapons." I'd say between that, Ready Weapon, and Fire Weapon (or Use Simple Object if you're hung up on the word "firearm" being under the "Fire Weapon" rule)...you should be able to figure it out.

"Can figure it out" is different from "the rules say it is only for firearms." That's the point of this thread.

This is the point of this thread some of these things are just dumb rules that must be house ruled to work. Thus we compile them tell CGL the etarata it please. Then we have a better game system overall I mean some of these things are simple to fix other might need full rewrites but its better than every table in the world playing difrently even more so when we have SRM that has to play completely RAW not that it can.

One more thing to add the extended test get -1 dice each roll is ok for some but in the grand scale of things makes most things impossible and is also illogical in some cases. Sure It means you can do some thing if you spend for ever on it but oddly enough you tend to be able to IRL ignoring its illogicalness it renders some test in the books imposable no-matter what or in one a few cases needed you to have your magic stupidly high.

I'd suggest trying to get a formed listed with proposed fixes Stickied, as I figure Catalyst would never actually go through the problems with putting out an official errata.

Also, I consider the -1 DP for Extended Tests an optional rule that my games don't opt for. Otherwise, nearly everything cool or useful is impossible (car modifications and creating spells, I'm looking at you).

[Doc Chase]

potentially..
except that like I listed in the first quote. The Simple to fire says it's specifically for firearms.
Fire Weapon talks about firing a ready Firearm and then gives a page number that lists Firearms (and not bows)

I agree with you that it's the most logical ruling. But the rules are /incredibly/ vague as to be broken. Which is what this thread is actually talking about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That's just an editing goof. It is basically saying that a bow/crossbow is treated as one would a firearm, and since the mode is SS we can derive from there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

OKAY I REALIZE I AM MAKING YOUR POINT. blargh. I'd love to be able to sit down with these books on completion of the compilation phase and just edit.

[Yerameyahu]

The downward spiral Extended Tests is an optional rule that should be used situationally by the GM, though. He should judge which tests warrant it, rather than either always/never using it.

[sabs]

That's just an editing goof. It is basically saying that a bow/crossbow is treated as one would a firearm, and since the mode is SS we can derive from there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

OKAY I REALIZE I AM MAKING YOUR POINT. blargh. I'd love to be able to sit down with these books on completion of the compilation phase and just edit.

It's an editing goof that has some GM's requiring complex actions to fire bows and crossbows.
Fire Weapon should not have the word 'firearms' in it. Or it should include non-thrown projectile weapons.

Thanks for making our point. I mean, it's not a huge deal. But it is kinda weird and silly.

[Neraph]

The downward spiral Extended Tests is an optional rule that should be used situationally by the GM, though. He should judge which tests warrant it, rather than either always/never using it.

Agreed. For some reason I thought it was the core rule that was how it worked now.

I've mentioned before that I don't own 4A. One day I'll get around to fixing that problem.

[Stahlseele]

"Can figure it out" is different from "the rules say it is only for firearms." That's the point of this thread.


I'd suggest trying to get a formed listed with proposed fixes Stickied, as I figure Catalyst would never actually go through the problems with putting out an official errata.

Also, I consider the -1 DP for Extended Tests an optional rule that my games don't opt for. Otherwise, nearly everything cool or useful is impossible (car modifications and creating spells, I'm looking at you).

Well . . that official thingie DOES have an errata board . . think about it . . a COMPLETE SUB FORUM JUST FOR ERRATA!
How many errors do they expect?
And they want to encroach on free stuff done by fans in my eyes <.<

[Yerameyahu]

Free stuff?

[Mayhem_2006]

It's an editing goof that has some GM's requiring complex actions to fire bows and crossbows.
Fire Weapon should not have the word 'firearms' in it. Or it should include non-thrown projectile weapons.

Well, semantically speaking you don't "fire" a non firearm, since the term fire refers to applying fire to the charge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Dumori]

Agreed. For some reason I thought it was the core rule that was how it worked now.

I've mentioned before that I don't own 4A. One day I'll get around to fixing that problem.

It was an official rule in SR4A at least the first pdf I think they knocked it back to optional when we pointed out it was insane though I'm not 100%

[Doc Chase]

Free stuff?

The fans go through the set and point out what won't work, and the company changes it via posting errata.

Beta testing budget = (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 0

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Dumori]

Hell we'll compile here then I'll post them there with a link to here.

[X-Kalibur]

Sorry, but that rule directly contradicts the rules in the core book. According to the section on Attacks against Passengers, a ram attack hurts the passengers, and a crash is just a ram against the vehicle itself.

It is not a contradiction, it is an addition.

Quote Arsenal Page 103

According to the standard SR4 vehicle combat rules, passengers
are not injured if their vehicle crashes or is destroyed. This
assumes the proper use of safety features and other mitigating
factors. If the characters are not wearing seatbelts and/or have
disabled the airbag systems, gamemasters should feel free to infl ict
Physical damage on characters during vehicle crashes equal to the
damage taken by the vehicle, resisted with Body and half Impact
armor (round down).




Quote SR4 (not A)

Additionally, the passengers gain protection from the vehicle’s chassis, adding the
Armor of the vehicle to any personal armor the characters are wearing.

Better than nothing I suppose.

[Neurosis]

On the bows/crossbows front?

There's a line on page 155 that specifically says "The Ranged Combat rules also apply to bows and projectile weapons." I'd say between that, Ready Weapon, and Fire Weapon (or Use Simple Object if you're hung up on the word "firearm" being under the "Fire Weapon" rule)...you should be able to figure it out.

Or we can use 'Use Skill' if we have to but I'm sure we can find SOME WAY to justify bows being firable according to RAW.

The only thing that's unclear is if it is a simple or complex action. Simple seems punishing enough. Taking a simple to reload and then a complex to fire would make bows super-awful.

[sabs]

It is not a contradiction, it is an addition.




Quote SR4 (not A)

Additionally, the passengers gain protection from the vehicle’s chassis, adding the
Armor of the vehicle to any personal armor the characters are wearing.

Better than nothing I suppose.

From SR4A

Damage and Passengers
Attacks must specifically target either the passengers (in which case,
the vehicle is unaffected) or the vehicle itself (in which case, the passengers
are not affected). The exceptions to this rule are ramming,
full-automatic bursts and area-effect weapon attacks like grenades and
rockets—these attacks affect both passengers and vehicles.
If an attack is made against passengers, make a normal Attack
Test, but the passengers are always considered to be under Good Cover
(though the Blind Fire modifier may apply to the attacker as the situation
dictates.) Passengers attempting to defend an attack inside a
vehicle suffer a –2 dice pool modifier to their dodge, since they are
somewhat limited in movement. Additionally, the passengers gain
protection from the vehicle’s chassis, adding the Armor of the vehicle
to any personal armor the characters are wearing. Called shots may be
used to circumvent one armor or the other but not both.

In the case of ramming, full-auto and area-effect attacks, both passengers
and vehicles resist the damage equally.

It's actually completely reasonable.. until you get to the last sentence.

[Malachi]

I'm not sure how you can have failed to notice the glaring problems with it - presumably your GM has houseruled the chase combat rules into something sane. Here's a good example of one of the ways in which they do not function.

A really badass rigger (rolling 30 dice on vehicle tests) on a Suzuki Mirage racing bike (Speed 200) is being chased by the cops - 15 cops (8 dice on vehicle tests) on Dodge Scoots (Speed 60). However, an angry old lady (3 dice on vehicle tests) is following the cops because they cut her off in traffic, and wants to give them a talking to. She's also riding on a Dodge Scoots.

The rigger starts at extreme range. He knows he can't take 15 cops on in a fair fight so he just wants to get away. Logically, he should be able to get away - his bike is over three times faster than anybody else's vehicle, and he's practically a superhumanly good driver. But he can't, in fact, he's going to get run off the road in short order because the rules are silly. Of course, were the old lady not angrily chasing the cops, things would be (even more illogically) completely different. It would still be utterly impossible for the rigger to actually get away, but at least the cops wouldn't be able to run him off the road either.

You start out specific and then end in a sweeping generalization, so I'm trying to follow your problem. I think I know your complaint but I'll try to follow through:

Our Rigger has 30 dice on his Vehicle test. Since he's being chased by 15 vehicles that's -2*15 = -30 (I think the rules should actually say "For each vehicle still in play beyond the first on the driver's side..."). Taking a literal interpretation, though, because the Rigger has a vehicle "in play" on his side (his own) we add +2 to his DP. That least a net DP of 2. Now the Rigger's Mirage has a 140 Speed advantage, so the Rigger gets +14 (140 / 10) to his DP, now netting him 16. For the Cops they have a base DP of 8, +30 for 15 vehicles on their side, -2 for opposing vehicles, netting 36. Given the odds involved of 16 vs. 36 it's likely that the cops will close by 1 Range category each turn. When it comes down to individual maneuvers (like trying to Ram or Cut Off) the Rigger still stands a really good chance of avoiding it, but yeah, the cops will be able to keep up with him.

Now, your "logical" assumption is the "he should be able to get away" - effortlessly, you imply. Remember, that the Chase Combat rules are very abstract in nature, they are supposed to represent the results of a whole series of turns, twists, changes, corners, traffic, buildings, pedestrians, whatever. The rules do not assume that you are on a straight, wide-open, track with no obstacles and everyone is just pinning their foot to the gas in a straight line and going. To me, looking at it, if you have 15 cops working together in an urban environment chasing down one opposing vehicle, there's a pretty good chance that they will, indeed, manage to contain or redirect that vehicle to the point where at least one of them can come within close range through the coordinated use of cut-offs, looping around, herding, redirecting, or whatnot.

If you want to track current speed and exact distance on a round-by-round basis, you can use the rules under Tactical Combat. I'm not saying Chase Combat is perfect by any stretch, but I don't think it's as bad as many are saying.

[Malachi]

I know for one spirits can't by RAW leave the astral.

Where does that come from?

[Stahlseele]

Because Materialization is a physical power, which does not work on the astral, where spirits appear when they are conjoured up . .