Broken Rules., Or where RAW just fails. Options

[Yerameyahu]

No, the 'exactly' is still subject to the context and scope of the section. I think you'll find that I didn't quote, I paraphrased; the important distinction that I was making in my own words is 'functions as'/'is', just as it was the first six times I did so.

[Neraph]

Function: to perform a specified action or activity; work; operate.
Exactly: in an exact manner; precisely; accurately; in every respect; just.

'functions exactly as a drone' = 'performs/works/operates precisely, accurately, and in every respect as a drone.'

You can't escape English when playing a game who's rules are in English. This is the exact meaning of that rule, regardless of context. Because of the specific and precise language used, biodrones use all options available to drones - which includes those for Vehicle and Drone upgrades.

Also, you didn't "paraphrase" the rule - you edited. Your text was the same as the book's, except where you left out the word "exactly." A paraphrase uses similar but different words, not the same words minus some.

[Yerameyahu]

I didn't use quotation marks, because it wasn't a quotation. I didn't claim it was, at any point. If anything, I was paraphrasing you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Again, no. The word 'exactly' doesn't break the scope of the paragraph: control mechanics. There is no such thing as 'regardless of context'. The biodrone is Piloted 'in every respect' as a drone is Piloted. 'Functions (exactly) as' does not mean 'is'. It is not the function of a drone to take vehicle mods, even if you were right about utterly ignoring the context of that sentence.

[StealthSigma]

You've had multiple people arguing both sides of the issue.

That's generally a sign that a rule needs clarification or better wording.

If a rule was crystal clear in it's intent, there wouldn't BE arguments, at least not over the RAW.

I've seen people arguing for one side over two words in a single sentence. An interpretation that requires a non-existent interpretation of the word function to mean that something becomes something else.

--

Now here you're right. "Functions as a drone" can't mean that. "Functions exactly as a drone," on the other hand, means that, regardless of context. It is inappropriate to partially quote relevant sections.

You're still misinterpreting the words and trying to twist them into saying something they cannot. Exactly is an adverb that modifies the verb functions. That means that the biodrone functions exactly like a drone or that the biodrone uses the same rules for whichever rules apply. The question becomes what functions of a drone does a biodrone have? For starters, vehicle modification is not a function of a vehicle. It is a function performed on the vehicle by a separate entity. Primarily some sort of a character with the appropriate mechanic skill.

[Neraph]

I've seen people arguing for one side over two words in a single sentence. An interpretation that requires a non-existent interpretation of the word function to mean that something becomes something else.

Did you even see the definitions of the words "function" and "exactly?" If not, go look them up now. Those two words work outside the normal rules and context of a sentence, simply based on the definitions of those words - the meaning of them extends beyond the chosen topic.

It is because a biodrone now performs, works, and operates precisely, accurately, and in all ways as a regular drone that it is now capable of accepting vehicle and drone modifications, since regular drones are able to accept those modifications.

And besides, one single sentence of the Stirrup Interface accounts for 20% of the rules for Stirrup Interfaces, excluding Move-By-Wire system's rules. So one sentence is very important.

[KarmaInferno]

Regardless of which side of the argument you are on...

...altering the wording slightly completely removes the issue.




-k

[Yerameyahu]

Those words do not "work outside the normal rules and context of a sentence".

[Neraph]

Those words do not "work outside the normal rules and context of a sentence".

... True. The words do not work outside the normal rules of a sentence, but they do extend beyond the original context, for sure.

For example:

"Fish have gills. Fish are also animals. Although fish live in the water, all animals have gills."

That paragraph is clearly talking about fish - however, the phrase "all animals" extends the meaning of the last part to include land and air animals, as well as microscopic ones.

The wording is the important part.

In a paragraph talking about anything, using the words "functions exactly as X" turns the sentence into a much more broad, general meaning. It changes the whole context of the sentence.

...altering the wording slightly completely removes the issue.

Absolutely.

[Yerameyahu]

Your example doesn't fit. This is closer to what you're arguing:
----- 'Biodrones can be controlled by a Pilot. Vehicle drones can be controlled by a Pilot. Biodrones are vehicle drones.'
Within the context of 'control by Pilot programs', biodrones 'function exactly as' other drones (because that's where the Pilot program rules are). (And yes, the rules are not clear on how to actually *follow* that, as we've all agreed).

No, 'functions (exactly) as' doesn't change the context, which is 'biodrone control systems'. Do you think that saying driving a car is 'just like riding a bike' means that the car becomes a bike? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Or is this phrase constrained by the relevant context to mean 'it is just like riding a bike in the context of forgetting the skill'?

[Neraph]

No, 'functions (exactly) as' doesn't change the context, which is 'biodrone control systems'. Do you think that saying driving a car is 'just like riding a bike' means that the car becomes a bike? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Or is this phrase constrained by the relevant context to mean 'it is just like riding a bike in the context of forgetting the skill'?

I disagree that that is the context of the paragraph. It isn't until the second sentence that skills even come up - that means skills and skill use is not the topic of the sentence (topic sentence is the first in a paragraph).

And "it is just like riding a bike" is different than saying "it is exactly like riding a bike." The sintax is very, very important.

[Yerameyahu]

On the contrary: "Exactly: in an exact manner; precisely; accurately; in every respect; just." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) It's *your* definition.

We're not talking about skills. Early in this thread, I made the mistake of saying 'skills' and assuming you'd know what I meant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You didn't, so I switched to 'control systems' pages ago. The context is 'these are the rules for the Stirrup Interface (a control system for biodrones)'.

That's not a very accurate definition of 'topic' you're using, either, but there's no use going into that.

[StealthSigma]

Did you even see the definitions of the words "function" and "exactly?" If not, go look them up now. Those two words work outside the normal rules and context of a sentence, simply based on the definitions of those words - the meaning of them extends beyond the chosen topic.

Vehicle modification is not a function of a drone. It is a function of a mechanic. You still haven't shown how the rules prove that a biodrone is a vehicle in order to have it qualify for vehicle modifications.

[Doc Chase]

Vehicle modification is not a function of a drone. It is a function of a mechanic. You still haven't shown how the rules prove that a biodrone is a vehicle in order to have it qualify for vehicle modifications.

I dunno dude, I'd put some Bulk Ammo Modification on a biodrone, if you catch my drift. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Slap a Pintle Mount on 'er, know what I mean?

Improve the Handling?

Vehicle related double entendre?

(hurr hurr hurr)

[Dumori]

I dunno dude, I'd put some Bulk Ammo Modification on a biodrone, if you catch my drift. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Slap a Pintle Mount on 'er, know what I mean?

Improve the Handling?

Vehicle related double entendre?

(hurr hurr hurr)

Extra entrances and exits perchance?
Or perhaps give the engine a boost?

This is fun!

[tagz]

I dunno dude, I'd put some Bulk Ammo Modification on a biodrone, if you catch my drift. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Slap a Pintle Mount on 'er, know what I mean?

Improve the Handling?

Vehicle related double entendre?

(hurr hurr hurr)

Shadowrun furries everywhere rejoice.


As far as the debate on this it seems pretty simple to me. Context always matters in natural spoken languages. The rule books are written in a natural language (my copy: English) and not in a technical format. Probably because it would be harder to write the book in the first place and also they wanted it to be more interesting to read and pull in a larger audience to actually buy the book and make money for their for profit company. Shocking.

So context of the rules matter. A rule that states "functions exactly like a drone" while in the scope of speaking specifically and only about the control mechanism indicates that it is specifically only a part of that control mechanism. True, it is poorly worded, but the slightest amount of common sense throws out the idea that after installing a stirrup interface and ONLY after then putting in a pilot program the animal suddenly becomes a drone. I think this is less a case of a broken rule and more a case of broken interpretation due to not editing this as most people would assume common sense would prevail and not need clarification.

[Dakka Dakka]

The problem is that with items/devices/concepts that do not exist in real life, "common sense" is a pretty poor guide.

[Ascalaphus]

Oh come on. Everyone knew what is was supposed to mean.

And yeah, I wouldn't want the books to be too much more like a technical manual. Those kind of texts are way too boring. This is supposed to be a game, not homework.

[Dakka Dakka]

Maybe in the case of the biodrones, nut generally speaking the rules section of RPGs is a technical manual. As such it should be logicallly sound and well written. Interesting but ambiguous and/or contradicting stuff should be left to the fluff section.

[StealthSigma]

I dunno dude, I'd put some Bulk Ammo Modification on a biodrone, if you catch my drift. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Please tell me this involves a penile implant with some sort of implanted gland.....

[Doc Chase]

Please tell me this involves a penile implant with some sort of implanted gland.....

I prefer to think of that as the 'Pop-Up Turret.'

[Dumori]

I prefer to think of that as the 'Pop-Up Turret.'

With a "water" cannon?

[Doc Chase]

With a "water" cannon?

Softgel rounds with a DMSO/Slab cocktail. I'll make sure the softgel is off-white, too.

[Yerameyahu]

:/ Don't be the guy who takes things from innuendo to baldly stated, StealthSigma. Sigh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Doc Chase]

Ridin' the biodrone, baby! Woo!

[Dumori]

Ridin' the biodrone, baby! Woo!

IIRC I think shifters can be made in to biodrones. Yeah that wold mean one really wierd char. Quick load a pilot on me I need to saok the LMG fire...