Broken Rules., Or where RAW just fails. Options

[Yerameyahu]

I guess, if you could access and afford deltaware of bleeding edge non-human cyber, and didn't care about ruining their magic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Doc Chase]

Well obviously. We're all about the Rule of Cool, and it's not like they have feelings! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Dumori]

I guess, if you could access and afford deltaware of bleeding edge non-human cyber, and didn't care about ruining their magic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Meh get them to raise it a few times. Any this is a OMG wtf as if the rule say that char not anythign remolte possable even binky was more sane.

[Yerameyahu]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Dumori, I can usually decipher your brand of English, but what? I agree that we're talking about extreme possibilities, not starting PCs, if that's what you said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dumori]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Dumori, I can usually decipher your brand of English, but what? I agree that we're talking about extreme possibilities, not starting PCs, if that's what you said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah I said this is a build to so how broke the rules are its more insane than Binky. Binky was a surged centaur with basicly fullbody replacement and made a cybezombie was semi homebrewed but not really. Made a bit of a hover tank all in all.

[Neraph]

Vehicle modification is not a function of a drone. It is a function of a mechanic. You still haven't shown how the rules prove that a biodrone is a vehicle in order to have it qualify for vehicle modifications.

Assuming my interpretation to be correct, that would make a biodrone a drone. All drones are vehicles. That would mean that they are then allowed to take Vehicle Modifications, since regular drones are able to take vehicle modifications.

Oh come on. Everyone knew what is was supposed to mean.

Don't make assumptions like that. First off, you have no guarentee that everyone knew what it was supposed to mean; and secondly, the way you make it sound is that everyone else who interprets anything differently than yourself has something critically wrong with themselves. That's a dangerous road to take, especially on the internetz.

[Ascalaphus]

Don't make assumptions like that. First off, you have no guarantee that everyone knew what it was supposed to mean; and secondly, the way you make it sound is that everyone else who interprets anything differently than yourself has something critically wrong with themselves. That's a dangerous road to take, especially on the internetz.

Did you really believe they intended for biodrones to turn into drones as soon as you turned on the Pilot - and revert back to animals when you jump in as rigger?

I'm not talking about how the passage can be interpreted if you're dead set on it - what did you think the author wanted it to mean?

[StealthSigma]

Assuming my interpretation to be correct, that would make a biodrone a drone. All drones are vehicles. That would mean that they are then allowed to take Vehicle Modifications, since regular drones are able to take vehicle modifications.

If you want to ignore the word 'like' then sure your interpretation may succeed. "functions exactly like a drone" just makes it a simile for comparison and doesn't make it a declaration that a biodrone is a drone.

[Yerameyahu]

Actually, in this case, Ascalaphus is right. Literally *everyone* knows it, and anyone who interprets it (unintentionally?) to mean a critter becomes a vehicle *does* have something critically wrong with them. But that's not the point here, in this thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

You know what else is broken..
The whole Choosing your Target thing for spells.

It says that you can target someone's physically, or you can target their astral form (if they have one)
It says if you're in the meat, you can only target physical targets
It says if you're astral you can target only astral targets
It says if you're using Astral Perception you can target both.
It says that you cannot use someone's aura to target them, UNLESS they have an astral form

BUT

When you read the Astral perception rules, it says that when you're seeing in the astral you can't see the physical world, and vice versa and that it takes a simple action to switch back and forth.

If you can't see someone physically, but you can see their aura, and you're both on the Meat side. Can you cast a spell at them?

[Marcus]

You know what else is broken..
The whole Choosing your Target thing for spells.

It says that you can target someone's physically, or you can target their astral form (if they have one)
It says if you're in the meat, you can only target physical targets
It says if you're astral you can target only astral targets
It says if you're using Astral Perception you can target both.
It says that you cannot use someone's aura to target them, UNLESS they have an astral form

BUT

When you read the Astral perception rules, it says that when you're seeing in the astral you can't see the physical world, and vice versa and that it takes a simple action to switch back and forth.

If you can't see someone physically, but you can see their aura, and you're both on the Meat side. Can you cast a spell at them?

Oh thanks goodness the discussion of the horror that is Bio-drones is finally over?

[Doc Chase]

Actually, in this case, Ascalaphus is right. Literally *everyone* knows it, and anyone who interprets it (unintentionally?) to mean a critter becomes a vehicle *does* have something critically wrong with them. But that's not the point here, in this thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hey, if I can make horrible innuendo from it, it must be legal.

Right? Right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[sabs]

Oh thanks goodness the discussion of the horror that is Bio-drones is finally over?

Bio-Drones are Horror Constructs!
That makes perfect sense.

[Dakka Dakka]

@sabs: I can't find anything that actually says that you need Physical Perception to acquire targets on the Physical Plane, only that you cannot cast at a target, if you are not present on the same plane. I'd say just as with implants, astral perception is natural enough for target acquisition. Obviously you can't cast an astral spell on an aura of a purely physical target but this may just as well be due to the fact that you try to establish a mystical link on the astral plane, where the target is not present.
If however you use astral perception to establish contact with the target the link could just as well be between your physical body and the target's physical body.

[sabs]

in Choosing your Target:

A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets
that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras
of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be
targeted).

Astral Perception:

It takes a Simple Action to shift
one’s perception from the astral to the physical, and another to
shift it back again (it is not possible to see both at the same time,
though almost everything in physical space is reflected on the
astral, albeit without detail). A character using astral perception
is considered dual-natured, active on both the physical and astral
planes simultaneously.

both of these together seem to be contradictory.

[Yerameyahu]

They kinda are; it's very unclear in SR4. Here's the way (I think, maybe) it makes sense: you're rules-fiat considered to be active on both planes (even though you're really not), and Astral Perception shows all physical objects. Ergo, you can aim at physical objects, because you can 'see' them (even though magic is supposed to take a mystical targeting link, whatever). It's not aura-targeting, even though it might as well be.

The rules are certainly unclear enough to count as Broken Rules.

[Dakka Dakka]

Did someone already mention the animal claws (Natural Attack) that pierce ItNW?

[sabs]

They kinda are; it's very unclear in SR4. Here's the way (I think, maybe) it makes sense: you're rules-fiat considered to be active on both planes (even though you're really not), and Astral Perception shows all physical objects. Ergo, you can aim at physical objects, because you can 'see' them (even though magic is supposed to take a mystical targeting link, whatever). It's not aura-targeting, even though it might as well be.

The rules are certainly unclear enough to count as Broken Rules.

I feel that Mages are powerful enough and that they should be required to switch their vision to target someone.
it's a simple action. it's not really the end of the world.

You use Astral perception to target things with astral forms
You use Physical perception to target things in the real world.

[Neraph]

Did someone already mention the animal claws (Natural Attack) that pierce ItNW?

How so? I was under the assumption that, as per Running Wild, Natural Attack was a normal, not paranormal Power.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, sabs, but that's completely against the SR4 RAW. In SR4, Astral sight is super-do-everything-vision.

[Marcus]

Dang it, i thought we had escaped this topic! Why bio-drones why!

[Dakka Dakka]

How so? I was under the assumption that, as per Running Wild, Natural Attack was a normal, not paranormal Power.

I have not gone through Running wild with a fine thoughed comb, nor does everyone have this book. If you only look at the BBB there is no such distinction and as such all Powers are treated equally, and thus ItNW does not apply to attacks done with the Natural Weapon Power no matter the source.

[Jaid]

How so? I was under the assumption that, as per Running Wild, Natural Attack was a normal, not paranormal Power.

"Immunity to Normal Weapons: This immunity applies to all
weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter
powers)."

"Natural Weapon
Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: Touch • Duration: Instant
The critter possesses some natural form of weaponry..."

natural weapon is a critter power (the precise nature of the critter power is irrelevant, as immunity to normal weapons does not specify non-mundane critter powers in any of the locations it is listed afaict), therefore it bypasses immunity to normal weapons. (so now your power throwing, missile mastery adept can throw an angry cat at a spirit for both immediate and ongoing damage)

[Neraph]

Huh. Interesting oversight.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, the adept's throw wouldn't work, but the cat's subsequent attacks would, except they're too weak to matter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)