Broken Rules., Or where RAW just fails. Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This is not RAW AFAIK.

It is ambiguous, at best... That is all. Sinced Unarmed/Melee Combat can make split attacks, and Ranged Combat can make split attacks, why should Throwing not be able to make split attacks? It is a general option for combat.

[Ascalaphus]

Well, Throw Weapon (SR4A, p. 148) is written singular:

Throw Weapon
A character may throw a ready throwing weapon (see Ready Weapon, p.
147) by taking a Simple Action.

So that's one, no more, no less weapon thrown per simple action spent.

[longbowrocks]

Well, Throw Weapon (SR4A, p. 148) is written singular:



So that's one, no more, no less weapon thrown per simple action spent.

All I want for christmas is some new errata that fixes this.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, Throw Weapon (SR4A, p. 148) is written singular:



So that's one, no more, no less weapon thrown per simple action spent.

Fire Weapon is also Only Singular (as is an Unarmed Attack)... So your point means very little in the scope of the rules... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Fire Weapon. Again
Throw Weapon. Again.

[longbowrocks]

Ascalaphus had a good point.
Throw Weapon
A character may throw a ready throwing weapon (see Ready Weapon, p.
147) by taking a Simple Action.

You can't get much more clear than singular with no fancy details.
Fire weapon, on the other hand, had provisions for two weapon firing. That's a hefty final nail in a coffin that didn't even need the previous one.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ascalaphus had a good point.
Throw Weapon
A character may throw a ready throwing weapon (see Ready Weapon, p.
147) by taking a Simple Action.

You can't get much more clear than singular with no fancy details.

Unarmed combat works the same way (except a Complex Action). Multiple Attacks is an option for combat. If you can do them for Firearms, and Unarmed/Melee Attacks, why would you restrict them from Thrown Weapons? I understand that Archery is Different (Uses a Use Skill Action at our table), because of the mechanics of the weapon. But why, exactly, would you even argue against throwing multiple thrown weapons, when it can obviously be done in real life? There are rules for multiple attacks. Just follow them for the Thrown Weapons.

As I said earlier. It is a bit ambiguous (and very arbitrary), as far as I am concerned. Of course, each table will roll the way it wants, so your mileage will vary.

And a note: I am not Invested in my argument here. Just pointing out the inconsistency. Allowing Multiple attacks through the Split Dice Pool mecahnic is just good practice in my opinion. It will allow those niche builds to have a bit more flexability, and it is not game breaking. It is also self-limiting, as there are not a LOT of ways to increase that after split bonuses for such types of combat.

[longbowrocks]

I think you're arguing that it's fair and reasonable, so it should be allowed.

I'm arguing that we should first recognize that the rules explicitly state that only one weapon may be thrown per simple action.
After that, we can say "screw this the rules make no sense" and do it the house rules way, but for the benefit of people looking for RAW, I think we should either agree on the rules, or bring up something that makes them less clear on this subject.

[Xahn Borealis]

those niche builds

I.e. the Troll whose Improvised Throwing Weapon of choice is the dwarf hacker. I'd like to see how many of those you can ready with a simple action. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[longbowrocks]

I.e. the Troll whose Improvised Throwing Weapon of choice is the dwarf hacker. I'd like to see how many of those you can ready with a simple action. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Two if the dwarf took the clone (or evil twin) negative quality from runner's companion. More if he was part of a large batch.

[Sephiroth]

I'm arguing that we should first recognize that the rules explicitly state that only one weapon may be thrown per simple action.
After that, we can say "screw this the rules make no sense" and do it the house rules way, but for the benefit of people looking for RAW, I think we should either agree on the rules, or bring up something that makes them less clear on this subject.

No. They do not explicitly state that. "A character may throw one ready throwing weapon by taking a Simple Action" is explicitly stating what you're saying it's stating, but this statement you state that it's stating is not actually what it is stating. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) If you extend your logic further, then a PC may only make an Intercept attack against one opponent in a fight, a PC holding two smartguns can only mentally eject the clip from one of them, a PC holding two simple objects can only use one of them per Simple Action, and so on. Is this RAW? As someone said at the beginning of this thread, "no, because that would be silly."

You're supposed to use the rules as written, not the rule as written. Materialization spirits can't technically materialize ever, since Materialization is a physical power, but because there are multiple other rules that assume that spirits CAN materialize, we all just accept it as a typo and ignore it. Similarly, since there are several other rules that set precedent for multiple attacks in combat, you must just accept that the developers are not capable of foreseeing every possible nit-picky interpretation of players and move on as if it DOES explicitly state you can throw multiple weapons at a time.

[Troyminator]

Just because I'm new, a noob, and REALLY tired, what does "RAW" mean?

Never Mind, I figured it out: Rules As Written.

I told you I was REALLY tired.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No. They do not explicitly state that. "A character may throw one ready throwing weapon by taking a Simple Action" is explicitly stating what you're saying it's stating, but this statement you state that it's stating is not actually what it is stating. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) If you extend your logic further, then a PC may only make an Intercept attack against one opponent in a fight, a PC holding two smartguns can only mentally eject the clip from one of them, a PC holding two simple objects can only use one of them per Simple Action, and so on. Is this RAW? As someone said at the beginning of this thread, "no, because that would be silly."

You're supposed to use the rules as written, not the rule as written. Materialization spirits can't technically materialize ever, since Materialization is a physical power, but because there are multiple other rules that assume that spirits CAN materialize, we all just accept it as a typo and ignore it. Similarly, since there are several other rules that set precedent for multiple attacks in combat, you must just accept that the developers are not capable of foreseeing every possible nit-picky interpretation of players and move on as if it DOES explicitly state you can throw multiple weapons at a time.

Thank you Sephiroth. That was a much better summary than what I have been struggling to put into coherent words. It has been a long day. Migraines and a lack of sleep do little for the cognitive reasoning of my arguments. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Well, duh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Except if we started talking about what made sense instead of the crazy RAW, we would have a thread *called* 'Broken Rules'. And we'd be bored!

[Dakka Dakka]

There is no way to generally increase the number of attacks only under special circumstances. With firearms (and melee weapons according to optional rules from Arsenal) you need two to get up to twice the amount. With Unarmed Combat you need more than one opponent, you cannot atack the same opponent more than once with a complex action. It is pretty cut and dry that you can only throw two throwing weapons per action phase. Readying more thanthat gives you a benefit of not having to ready them in the next action phase.

[Xahn Borealis]

Best thing about Throwing Weapons? Improvised ones. Specifically, the Metahuman Body. How many of those can you ready with a Simple Action? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[longbowrocks]

Best thing about Throwing Weapons? Improvised ones. Specifically, the Metahuman Body. How many of those can you ready with a Simple Action? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

How big is your party? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Xahn Borealis]

How big is your party? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

0. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

Tymeus: I'm not saying throwing more weapons would be unreasonable.* I'm just saying that RAW doesn't permit it - and this is the Broken Rules thread.

The ways to get more than the normal amount of attacks are all pretty specific. You can shoot a firearm from each hand with the same simple action - provided they're certain types of guns. You can attack more than once in close combat - but only on multiple opponents, and they must be within 1m of each other.

You can't extend either of those to throwing and still claim it's RAW.




*I firmly believe it would be cinematic (and therefore justified) to throw an entire handful of shuriken. Or playing cards that explode for fire damage on impact (throwing adept with some fiddling...)

[longbowrocks]

Definitely not RAW. I also agree that you *should* be able to throw more weapons with more hands though. It's more difficult, but that's why you split your dice pool. To show that it's more difficult.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tymeus: I'm not saying throwing more weapons would be unreasonable.* I'm just saying that RAW doesn't permit it - and this is the Broken Rules thread.

The ways to get more than the normal amount of attacks are all pretty specific. You can shoot a firearm from each hand with the same simple action - provided they're certain types of guns. You can attack more than once in close combat - but only on multiple opponents, and they must be within 1m of each other.

You can't extend either of those to throwing and still claim it's RAW.

*I firmly believe it would be cinematic (and therefore justified) to throw an entire handful of shuriken. Or playing cards that explode for fire damage on impact (throwing adept with some fiddling...)

It is in the Broken Rules Topic because the Rules do not allow it by default. You have to look at the entirety of the rules to see its useage. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

And yes, I like the image of Exploding Cards ala Gambit, but sadly, not available by the rules.

[longbowrocks]

It is in the Broken Rules Topic because the Rules do not allow it by default. You have to look at the entirety of the rules to see its useage. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

And yes, I like the image of Exploding Cards ala Gambit, but sadly, not available by the rules.

Actually, you could coat your cards in high grade explosives and detonator caps. I don't know how that would play by the rules, but the materials and usability are there.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually, you could coat your cards in high grade explosives and detonator caps. I don't know how that would play by the rules, but the materials and usability are there.

Heh...

[Socinus]

I hesitate to bring this up because I'm not sure if it's really BROKEN per say, but it does hang a huge question mark over other parts of the game.

The Additional Clip modification basically kills any need for machine guns.

IE: P93 Praetor E SMG, costs 850 out of the box and has a 50 round clip. Slap Additional Clip on one and you've got basically a 100 round capacity for 1,700 nuyen. Add the obligatory smartlink and you can, as a free action, switch between the clips. For an extra 500, you can up the weapon's capacity with Extended Clip to 126 rounds. By adding Gas Vent 3, Foregrip, and a Shock Pad, you can bring the weapon up to a recoil compensation of 8.

The total cost of this is 2,700 at an Availably of 11.

With a weapon like that, remind me why I want to even bother with Light or Medium machine guns. Heavy, maybe, but when the uncompensated recoil doubles is factored in....

[longbowrocks]

Thank you. This will go well with my next character.