Broken Rules., Or where RAW just fails. Options

[Critias]

With a weapon like that, remind me why I want to even bother with Light or Medium machine guns. Heavy, maybe, but when the uncompensated recoil doubles is factored in....

Different weapons for different applications. You don't take a machine gun just for the high ammo capacity, you want the high base damage and range, too.

[Dakka Dakka]

With a weapon like that, remind me why I want to even bother with Light or Medium machine guns. Heavy, maybe, but when the uncompensated recoil doubles is factored in....

The Preator does 5P AP 0 a LMG 6P AP-1. But most importantly range. SMGs can't go beyond 150m LMGs reach out to 800m, MMGs and HMGs even to 1200m.

[KarmaInferno]

Personally, I'm enamored of the Ingram White Knight because of it's RC 6 gas vent. The base damage and range ain't too shabby either.

And after all, if you're rocking autofire, subtlety isn't in the picture anyway.





-k

[Dakka Dakka]

It's five, but the point stands. Just buy an external smartlink and a gyromount and your good for running around firing full bursts without penalty. Too bad you can't mod it for HV. That would be even more dakka. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif)

[Bigity]

Nothing wrong with passengers getting damaged more than the vehicle; the vehicle is tougher, and bullet holes don't necessarily reduce its functionality. I'm only worried about getting a free 'multi-attack' on people just because they're inside a vehicle, and you fired 10 bullets instead of 6.

Except that doesn't always work. For a city bus, sure. For an APC or tank? If the bullets can't even get past the skin of the thing, how do they travel through it to hit pasengers?

Didn't the older editions have vehicle hardneded armor that addressed this kind of thing?

[Yerameyahu]

They did, and yes, it's a weird thing in some cases. You shouldn't have tanks in your SR anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) The GM is free to say 'fully-enclosed armored vehicles don't do this', too.

However, don't forget that passengers get the benefit of the vehicle's armor and cover (and a dodge penalty, but that's fair). I don't believe that the rules mean they lose these modifiers for area/FA attacks. It's my interpretation (and I assume a common one?) that the area/FA exception applies only to the issue of 'both vehicle and passengers are hit', instead of the default rule 'an attack must target either passenger(s) *or* vehicle'.

[Dakka Dakka]

The broken thing about the rule is that 3 bullets in BF cannot damage the passengers and the vehicle at the same time but three bullets in FA can. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Indeed, wonky. I mean, you can't fire 3 bullets and call it FA, but you might do a split Full Burst or something. Not really a big deal, but another Broken Rule. They presumably meant 'Full Burst' instead of FA.

[Bigity]

So, what is 4.5? I've been out of the SR game for awhile. I know about SR4A but not sure what 4.5 refers to.

[Dakka Dakka]

I mean, you can't fire 3 bullets and call it FA,

Yes, you can:

Characters can use a weapon in fullauto mode to fire bursts, as noted above, each taking a Simple Action. Full-auto weapons can also be used to fire long bursts with a Simple Action or full bursts with a Complex Action.

Emphasis mine.

They presumably meant 'Full Burst' instead of FA.

Which is just as weird, why do passengers have to defend against 10 bullets with only one net hit but not against 6 bullets with 25 net hits? The latter has a much higher chance of actually penetrating the vehicle's hull.

@Bigity: it's just an alternate abbreviation for the Anniversary Edition. Probably because some people feel that the rules changes are almost as vast and far reaching as the changes from D&D 3.0 to 3.5.

[Yerameyahu]

Wow, that's stupid. Why do all the guns have BF/FA? Sigh. (Why does everyone compulsively say 'emphasis mine', btw?)

I didn't say it wasn't weird. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The whole area/FA rule is weird.

[Dakka Dakka]

Wow, that's stupid. Why do all the guns have BF/FA? Sigh.

a)Because a lot of RL guns have that too. b) because of the other weird rule that you can call a shot on a BF burst but not on a FA burst, no matter whether the latter burst uses 3(short) 6(long) or 10(full) bullets.

I didn't say it wasn't weird. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The whole area/FA rule is weird.

QFT

[Critias]

So, what is 4.5? I've been out of the SR game for awhile. I know about SR4A but not sure what 4.5 refers to.

4.5 is what some folks like to call SR4A.

[Jhaiisiin]

Wow, that's stupid. Why do all the guns have BF/FA? Sigh.

Because a BF setting on a weapon *forces* a burst of no more than 3 or 5 rounds. FA can have bursts, but you have to manually let off the trigger. That's the difference. BF is basically more controlled, and requires less thought/coordination to get the bursts.

[longbowrocks]

(Why does everyone compulsively say 'emphasis mine', btw?)

Because we live in an age of prolific misquotes and quotes missing context.

So, what is 4.5?

It's a real number between 4 and 5. (emphasis mine) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I don't think it helps though. It doesn't address misquotes, and I'm not saying 'don't bold/underline/etc.'; I'm saying we know you added it.

Jhaiisiin, that's a RL argument, not a SR4 one. If FA does everything that BF does in SR4 (barring other broken rules), it's silly to have BF/FA (instead of just FA). *shrug* I'm not gonna worry about it, but it's one extra ambiguity.

[KarmaInferno]

Shadowrun does, in fact, occasionally attempt to model Real Life.

I mean, I know it's rare, but it does happen.




-k

[Stahlseele]

FA does everything BF does AND MORE.

[Tyro]

FA does everything BF does AND MORE.

BF is better in panic situations. It's harder to blow your clip against a wall.

Also, some weapons are intentionally BF only because the clip size is too small for FA to be practical.

[Dakka Dakka]

FA does everything BF does AND MORE.

and less (No called shots)

[Stahlseele]

Spray and Pray AKA suppressive Fire.

[Dakka Dakka]

Spray and be annoyed is more like SR suppressive fire.

With all but the largest weapons, most combat oriented characters can simply laugh at the potential damage if they are hit at all. Those who fear getting a bit of Stun damage, just drop prone and can still shoot back, since nothing prevents you from shooting from the prone position.

Oh and don't forget the bullet wasting adepts and Bio-Samurai. Chrome Sammies at least could turn off their wired reflexes/MBW.

[James McMurray]

The brings up another broken rule (that may have already been mentioned). There's no way suppressive fire should take more bullets for some people than for others. It should be the same for every pass you want to suppress, regardless of whether you act that round or not.

[Tyro]

The brings up another broken rule (that may have already been mentioned). There's no way suppressive fire should take more bullets for some people than for others. It should be the same for every pass you want to suppress, regardless of whether you act that round or not.

Yeah, suppressive fire should be per combat turn, not per pass

[Yerameyahu]

No Called Shot for an FA short burst was what I meant by "barring other broken rules".