Broken Rules., Or where RAW just fails. Options

[longbowrocks]

I don't think it helps though. It doesn't address misquotes, and I'm not saying 'don't bold/underline/etc.'; I'm saying we know you added it.

I guess. I was thinking there could be gray areas where the emphasis could change the meaning, and it might have been in the original quote.

[longbowrocks]

Anyone seen the visibility modifier table in 4A? Ultrasound vision takes a -3 penalty in absolute darkness. What the heck?

[Saint Sithney]

Anyone seen the visibility modifier table in 4A? Ultrasound vision takes a -3 penalty in absolute darkness. What the heck?

That's because of its lack of definition. -3 dice doesn't mean you won't see a shape so much as you won't be finding needles in hay.

[longbowrocks]

This should be for pure ultrasound vision though. If light could affect it at all then it wouldn't be sound based. Or perhaps people could hear you yelling inside a vacuum. Either way it's silly.

[Dakka Dakka]

That's because of its lack of definition. -3 dice doesn't mean you won't see a shape so much as you won't be finding needles in hay.

Additionally you cannot perceive color with ultrasound imaging.

@longbowrocks: While it is true that ultrasound vision needs only sound to generate the images, you still perceive those images visually. That is why it is called a vision penalty.

[KarmaInferno]

Ultrasound?






-k

[longbowrocks]

Additionally you cannot perceive color with ultrasound imaging.

Correct, and that is an iron rule based on the definition. You won't perceive color with ultrasound imaging no matter how bright or dark it is, but for some reason you get a penalty in darkness, with no penalty in normal light.

@longbowrocks: While it is true that ultrasound vision needs only sound to generate the images, you still perceive those images visually. That is why it is called a vision penalty.

But you don't perceive the images using ambient light. The ultrasound device you are using converts sound wave patterns into light, which is only then perceived by your eyes.

For that light to be intercepted by darkness, you would need light/dark mechanics similar to those of dramatized evil (the darkness crept into his room, absorbing all light). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

What I wanted to say is that while Ultrasound Vision uses sound waves, the user uses it as his visual sense. Listing its draw backs under Listening penalties would be kind of counterintuitive. I don't know how wide spread noise in the frequency band of those detectors is, but such noise should indeed hinder ultrasound devices.
Passive mode and a select sound filter should take care of it though.

[longbowrocks]

What I wanted to say is that while Ultrasound Vision uses sound waves, the user uses it as his visual sense. Listing its draw backs under Listening penalties would be kind of counterintuitive. I don't know how wide spread noise in the frequency band of those detectors is, but such noise should indeed hinder ultrasound devices.
Passive mode and a select sound filter should take care of it though.

So, you're saying the "absolute darkness" row in the visual modifiers table translates to "lots of chaotic background noise" for ultrasound? They should really have a separate row for that.

[Dakka Dakka]

So, you're saying the "absolute darkness" row in the visual modifiers table translates to "lots of chaotic background noise" for ultrasound? They should really have a separate row for that.

No.
I was trying to say that since you use the ultrasound emitter and detector as your vision it is intuitive to find the appropriate modifiers in the table for vision modifiers. I just realize that a whole set of possible modifiers (ultrasound background noise, other ultrasound emitters) is simply missing, and the modifiers resulting form lack of actual light are, to say the least, creative. A blanket -2 or -3 for lack of definition and color and listening modifiers would make a lot more sense.

[Tyro]

No.
I was trying to say that since you use the ultrasound emitter and detector as your vision it is intuitive to find the appropriate modifiers in the table for vision modifiers. I just realize that a whole set of possible modifiers (ultrasound background noise, other ultrasound emitters) is simply missing, and the modifiers resulting form lack of actual light are, to say the least, creative. A blanket -2 or -3 for lack of definition and color and listening modifiers would make a lot more sense.

Hear, hear!

[Stahlseele]

isn't there somewhere a part in the rules that says:"characters with multiple sight enhancements use the lowest negative"?

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Well, yeah...but the problem persists in a weird way:

A sammy is shooting at an invisible mage.
If the lights are off, he has a -6 penalty, unless he has ultrasound, in which case it's a -3.
If the lights are on, he has a -6 penalty, unless he has ultrasound, in which case he has no penalty, because it's not dark!?



edit: -6, not -8

[CeeJay]

A sammy is shooting at an invisible mage.
If the lights are off, he has a -6 penalty, unless he has ultrasound, in which case it's a -3.
If the lights are on, he has a -6 penalty, unless he has ultrasound, in which case he has no penalty, because it's not dark!?

Welcome to the world of shadowrun rules... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

-CJ

[Warlordtheft]

Here's an explanation, in darkness, you just get a faint idea with faint visual references. Hence the -3 modifier. In the light you get precise references, so the faint idea with an accurate visual reference so there is no modifier.

[longbowrocks]

I don't see why people can not get this. If it's ultrasound, you are getting a clear picture regardless of light, unless the room is sound dampened. In that case, people would stand out with even MORE definition (hence bonus).

[longbowrocks]

No.
I was trying to say that since you use the ultrasound emitter and detector as your vision it is intuitive to find the appropriate modifiers in the table for vision modifiers. I just realize that a whole set of possible modifiers (ultrasound background noise, other ultrasound emitters) is simply missing, and the modifiers resulting form lack of actual light are, to say the least, creative. A blanket -2 or -3 for lack of definition and color and listening modifiers would make a lot more sense.

I don't think I'm going to get this. With pure ultrasound, you can't tell if it's light or dark. You get no color either. Honestly it's like waving a flashlight or not waving a flashlight in front of someone with no eyes. They might hear you and knock you upside the head for being annoying, but other than that, no change.

[Tyro]

I don't see why people can not get this. If it's ultrasound, you are getting a clear picture regardless of light, unless the room is sound dampened. In that case, people would stand out with even MORE definition (hence bonus).

I'd love a well-thought-out ultrasound penalties table for a houserule at my table.

[James McMurray]

I think, but can in no way prove, that the table is meant for people who normally use their eyes but are carrying an ultrasound sensor with a visual readout on it, so if it's totally dark you're relying completely on your technogadget, but the brighter it gets the more you can use your eyes as well. At least that's the only way I can see light factoring in at all.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think, but can in no way prove, that the table is meant for people who normally use their eyes but are carrying an ultrasound sensor with a visual readout on it, so if it's totally dark you're relying completely on your technogadget, but the brighter it gets the more you can use your eyes as well. At least that's the only way I can see light factoring in at all.

Which actually works as an explanation. Sort of... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[longbowrocks]

I can accept that, as long as no one tries to use that negative modifier for ultrasound vision that replaces normal sight.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree: all the various visions are basically assumed to be stacked in SR4. No, it's not clear or well-explained, at all. Neither is the sense/sensor distinction clear or well-explained, despite being important. So, say that pure Ultrasound maxes out at -3 (or whatever, if that's too harsh), while ultrasound-assisted 'normal vision' is different. Definitely an area of clumsy rules, if not Broken Rules.

[longbowrocks]

I agree: all the various visions are basically assumed to be stacked in SR4. No, it's not clear or well-explained, at all. Neither is the sense/sensor distinction clear or well-explained, despite being important. So, say that pure Ultrasound maxes out at -3 (or whatever, if that's too harsh), while ultrasound-assisted 'normal vision' is different. Definitely an area of clumsy rules, if not Broken Rules.

Even better, the electronic ultrasound vision enhancement covers this, allowing for it to layer over, or replace vision.

[Yerameyahu]

That's its own problem, too. Ultrasound is a sensor, but it's listed as a Visual Enhancement.

[longbowrocks]

The rules appear to be identical for ultrasound and, say, thermo under visual enhancements. What's the problem?