Broken Rules., Or where RAW just fails. Options

[Neraph]

Go read your book.

Spirits start on the Astral Plane. Materialization, Inhabitation, and Possession are all physical powers. You can't use physical powers on the Astral plane.

[Social Reject]

To me the bigger issue is that it's resolved as a ram attack -- so that the more Body your vehicle has, the more damage you take (by quite a bit). Something's a little off when you're better off crashing at 100+ kmh on your motorcycle than in the back of a riot control vehicle.

Actually this makes sense in part. Especially in single vehicle crashes, a large vehicle works against the passengers. The force being imparted if you crash into, say, a wall, is going to be the velocity times the mass. The common misconception that consumers have is that a larger vehicle is safer to be in. While this may be true in a multiple vehicle collision, in a single vehicle collision, it is the exact opposite. More likely than not, the large tree, or embankment or building has significantly more mass than your vehicle and will not be moved. Nearly all the kinetic energy generated by the crash will be directed right back at the vehicle itself. The passengers inside are going to get tossed pretty violently in the case of a high speed riot control vehicle crash and the drivers are likely to get crushed.

For motorcycles it doesn't always work because the rider typically exits the vehicle in a crash. Then it becomes the rider's more or less unprotected internal organs and skeleton versus the pavement or whatever other surface it takes up an argument with. Or, unprotected skin in the case of those foolish squids who ride without gear. So it would be the rider's kinetic energy versus the obstacle and/or the friction of the ground. Motorcycle crash damage might be better off resolved using falling damage or something though it would require more math to set up a table that equates speed of motorcycle travel with natural falling acceleration. Though off the top of my head I don't remember how falling damage is calculated in SR4. This way you simulate an ejected rider hitting a solid object as if he were falling horizontally and at a higher than normal rate of speed. Terminal velocity is approximately 200 kph, so you might be able to work backwards from that. Never going to be perfect, but might work better.

The dynamics of vehicle crashes are hard to model in a game. Obviously the key factor to surviving the crash is whether or not the vehicle survives. If its chassis survives, the passengers are going to be in better shape. Problem is in Shadowrun "deadly" damage to a vehicle technically just means it is disabled, not that it is completely obliterated. Manufacturers test cars by ramming them into a wall as opposed to another car so that they can measure the ability of the vehicle to withstand its own mass in a single vehicle collision since they know Asian people and women drive them and this will be the likely result. The rules, unless involving huge amounts of math, aren't going to be able to model the damage taken by a human body in a crash where the chassis of the car "survives" which is why I guess the default is that they take no damage if they use safety systems. But, it is a role playing game and nobody wants their character to die ingloriously in a car accident because, even though they had their seat belt on, the car was torn in half by the impact.

[Stahlseele]

Well, a bigger/larger/tougher vehicle would probably simply break through the wall, leaving some of it's energy and so on untill it is stopped, and not just suddenly go SPLAT against the first wall . . well, in reality at least . . maybe . . of course, these don't apply to shadowrun rules, much less in the context of this thread ^^

[Yerameyahu]

Someone almost mentioned this, but I view it as a 'broken rule' that Full Auto attacks hit the vehicle *and* every single person inside. That could mean 10 bullets doing full damage to 2, 4, or a dozen people… and the vehicle.

[Doc Chase]

Someone almost mentioned this, but I view it as a 'broken rule' that Full Auto attacks hit the vehicle *and* every single person inside. That could mean 10 bullets doing full damage to 2, 4, or a dozen people… and the vehicle.

Just imagine if they had 3 IP's. Blow through two mags in three seconds, amirite? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[sabs]

Just imagine if they had 3 IP's. Blow through two mags in three seconds, amirite? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Take a Riot Control Vehicle with 12 people in it.

Ingram White Knight, full auto narrow burst, shoot at the vehicle.
All of a sudden you're doing 15P to everyone inside, completely ignoring the armor of the vehicle.
x3 for 3IP
You just killed everyone in that vehicle, and the vehicle is completely untouched.

[Doc Chase]

Take a Riot Control Vehicle with 12 people in it.

Ingram White Knight, full auto narrow burst, shoot at the vehicle.
All of a sudden you're doing 15P to everyone inside, completely ignoring the armor of the vehicle.
x3 for 3IP
You just killed everyone in that vehicle, and the vehicle is completely untouched.

Just as long as you're wearing a fedora and a pinstripe suit while you're doing it.

[Yerameyahu]

I wouldn't say 'vehicle untouched'. Your Full Auto attack hits the vehicle *and* all passengers, unless you specifically fired only at the passengers; I believe you have to do so individually.

With non-Full-Auto, it's not clear if you can just say, 'I target all passengers'; that's *another* problem, because how do you decide which passenger(s) get hit? After all, it might be Blind Fire and you don't even know if there are passengers, how many, etc.

[Doc Chase]

Meh. Solve it with a "I aim for the driver's seat" or "passenger's seat", and let the lead fly where it may.

[sabs]

I wouldn't say 'vehicle untouched'. Your Full Auto attack hits the vehicle *and* all passengers, unless you specifically fired only at the passengers; I believe you have to do so individually.

With non-Full-Auto, it's not clear if you can just say, 'I target all passengers'; that's *another* problem, because how do you decide which passenger(s) get hit? After all, it might be Blind Fire and you don't even know if there are passengers, how many, etc.

I say vehicle untouched because you would need 6 net hits in order to actually damage an Ares City Master

Vehicles have hardened armor effectively. The Ares CityMaster riot control vehicle has 20 points of armor.
So you have to do 21P in order to damage the vehicle at all.

[X-Kalibur]

I don't see any rule stating that the passengers stop applying the vehicles armor to them either. Simply that they have to resist damage along with the vehicle. Right about that part it states that passengers get a bonus from the chassis equal to it's armor.

[Yerameyahu]

Oh, I see what you meant, sabs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) A Citymaster is a bit of an extreme case, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Most vehicles have far less armor.

[sabs]

I don't see any rule stating that the passengers stop applying the vehicles armor to them either. Simply that they have to resist damage along with the vehicle. Right about that part it states that passengers get a bonus from the chassis equal to it's armor.

At the very end it says:
In the case of ramming, full-auto and area-effect attacks, both passengers
and vehicles resist the damage equally.

[Yerameyahu]

That *could* mean no bonus armor, or it could just mean everyone is hit (both of which would make sense to mention, given the preceding paragraph). No bonus armor doesn't make sense, because the situation hasn't changed, while 'everything is hit' by area-attacks *does* make sense (within this crazy rule). At my table, we say that it's for Suppressive Fire, not Full Auto; Suppressive Fire is an area attack, after all, while Full Auto isn't.

Definitely a messy point in the rules, regardless.

[Jaid]

Because Materialization is a physical power, which does not work on the astral, where spirits appear when they are conjoured up . .

no worries, spirits with the astral gateway power can make it onto the physical plane though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

so it's not quite true that spirits *can't* get on the physical... it's just really really improbable. fortunately, once they're dual natured courtesy of the astral gateway, they can then stay on the material and even leave the area of the astral gateway.

but yeah, under normal circumstances, a spirit technically can't materialise or possess anything.

[Stahlseele]

Spirits don't like being corporal for any reason.
It's as uncomfortable for them as a troll trying to squeaze into a dwarven leather gimp suit . .
Also, once they go back to the astral for any reason, they are back to square one again . .

[Malachi]

Go read your book.

Spirits start on the Astral Plane. Materialization, Inhabitation, and Possession are all physical powers. You can't use physical powers on the Astral plane.

Yeah, that's really one of those "splitting hairs" situations. I think everyone can agree (... maybe not Cain) that the RAI are that Materialization can be used, as it is what makes them actually appear on the physical.

That actually reminds me of this:

Posted: 12:42 a.m. by Kathraxis Hey, I have a question! When you preheat the oven, can you start it before you measure out the ingredients, or do you have to do it afterward? Please answer quickly, my friends and I have been arguing about it for four hours and we're getting pretty hungry.

... which is from this

[Yerameyahu]

I love that post. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Classic.

[X-Kalibur]

At the very end it says:
In the case of ramming, full-auto and area-effect attacks, both passengers
and vehicles resist the damage equally.

Meaning you and the vehicle resist the same attack. The preceeding paragraph states that passengers get the armor bonus of the vehicle. So while both the car and it's occupants have to soak the 15P full narrow burst (which makes no sense, Wide maybe and definitely supressing fire) the vehicle in question gets armor + body while the occupants get (armor + body) + vehicle armor.

Also depends on how you define resisting equally. The vehicle and occupants both resist the same damage with armor + body + mods. The vehicle armor is a mod for the occupants.

[sabs]

Hence why I brought it up for this post (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
It depends on how you define resisting equally. It's very ambiguous.
And really, it makes no sense at all for a long narrow burst.

[Yerameyahu]

Right. However, I wouldn't say that 'equally' is broken in the same way as 'can't materialize'; it's simply ambiguous, and the proper interpretation is available. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I still think 10 bullets for vehicle + as many targets as fit *is* 'broken by design'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[sabs]

Yes, it's definitely a "what the hell were they thinking"
Not to mention, if I'm in a vehicle with 20 points of Armor.. behind closed windows,etc. How are they getting to aim at me at all?

[Yerameyahu]

They don't: you get Good Cover and Blind Fire.

[Stahlseele]

Because the seating arrangements in cars are pretty much standardized due to not being able to do it in a way that is different in a meaningfull way?

[Yerameyahu]

Doesn't matter, there are no hit locations anyway. In the case of FA, you hit everyone and the car, regardless of position.