Broken Rules., Or where RAW just fails. Options

[Yerameyahu]

Ultrasound is a separate emitter/receiver set, and doesn't correspond to a sense. Thermo is just receiving normal radiation, and it's a sense. It's the difference between radar and low-light.

[longbowrocks]

Ultrasound is a separate emitter/receiver set, and doesn't correspond to a sense. Thermo is just receiving normal radiation, and it's a sense. It's the difference between radar and low-light.

This is really starting to sound like application of real life to the game, rather than actual RAW. Can I get a reference of some sort to the books? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)

Couldn't magnetosense, electrosense, broad auditory spectrum, or biosonar be comparable?

[Dakka Dakka]

This is really starting to sound like application of real life to the game, rather than actual RAW. Can I get a reference of some sort to the books? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)

The ultrasound accessory consists of an emitter that sends out continuous ultrasonic pulses and a receiver that picks up the echoes of these pulses to create a topographic ultrasound “map” that is laid over (or replaces) the user’s normal visual sensory input.

Couldn't magnetosense, electrosense, broad auditory spectrum, or biosonar be comparable?

IIRC magnetosense, electrosense and broad audio spectrum only sense some kind of emission instead of emitting it themselves and detecting the echo. Biosonar works on the same principle as ultrasound vision.

[longbowrocks]

I kind of mis-spoke. Is there a difference rule-wise between emitter/sensor, and a sense?

[Fortinbras]

This is really starting to sound like application of real life to the game, rather than actual RAW.

Not applying any real life applications to your game is what is known as a mechanical disconnect and it gives you cancer.
Ultra sound is listed as a sensor, rather than a sense, like a Troll's thermographic vision.

[Fortinbras]

I kind of mis-spoke. Is there a difference rule-wise between emitter/sensor, and a sense?

In which context? If it involves vision penalties, then there is no rules difference between using your elven Low Light eyes or your implanted Ultra sound sensor.
Ultra sound is like looking through a pair of glasses, while thermographic vision can be entirely natural. It is up to the GM to determine if and when that becomes an issue.

[longbowrocks]

Sounds fair.

[Dakka Dakka]

In which context? If it involves vision penalties, then there is no rules difference between using your elven Low Light eyes or your implanted Ultra sound sensor.
Ultra sound is like looking through a pair of glasses, while thermographic vision can be entirely natural. It is up to the GM to determine if and when that becomes an issue.

The difference is the emitter. Biosonar is natural as well (at least as natural as surge is) and works the same way as ultrasound vision. The images created by Implanted Cybereyes with Vision Enhancements are just as artificial the ultrasound sensor.

This only ever can become an issue when magic is interacting with senses.

[longbowrocks]

Agreed. Although I would have brought that up as technological vs natural vision.

[Stahlseele]

Under SR3 there were even different modifiers for natural and augmented vision.
Troll/Dwarf IR gave a +2 in Total Darkness, while Cyber gave a +3. Ultra-Sound was a +4.

[longbowrocks]

Ah. Makes a bit more sense why people might distinguish then.

[Yerameyahu]

I think it's [sense/sensor] an important distinction in the current edition, even though they removed the difference between natural/artificial senses (Troll eyes, thermo enhancement). If you start messing with it, you have to alter everything. UWB radar is the biggest one, but it's also an issue for things like capacity and drones… currently, you can install a camera and add ultrasound to *it*, instead of the drone. Conversely, you can't *just* add ultrasound (IIRC), because it's an enhancement. (This even contradicts the fluff on the Dragonfly drone, I think).

In addition, senses use your normal Perception skill (and attribute), while sensors don't.

To detect a person, critter, or vehicle with sensors, the character/ vehicle must make a successful Sensor + Perception Test (Sensor + Clearsight autosoft in the case of drones).

It goes on to mention that sensors are subject to Signature rules (which are their own Broken Rule, unfortunately).

I could have this all wrong, but it makes sense. It's just yucky.

[longbowrocks]

In addition, senses use your normal Perception skill (and attribute), while sensors don't. It goes on to mention that sensors are subject to Signature rules (which are their own Broken Rule, unfortunately).

Odd. I'll look that up next time I get the chance.

[KarmaInferno]

Not applying any real life applications to your game is what is known as a mechanical disconnect and it gives you cancer.

This IS the "broken rules" thread...




-k

[Fortinbras]

This IS the "broken rules" thread...

Becoming so obsessed with mechanics that you forget your players should be living in a flesh and blood world breaks the game more than any rule ever could, like some other Fourth Editions I could mention.

[longbowrocks]

Becoming so obsessed with mechanics that you forget your players should be living in a flesh and blood world breaks the game more than any rule ever could, like some other Fourth Editions I could mention.

You must be talking about MLP FiM 4th edition. Speaking of 4th editions, I'm really enjoying DnD 4ed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Fortinbras]

Speaking of 4th editions, I'm really enjoying DnD 4ed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I really enjoy Scrabble, but it has nothing to do with RPGs either.

[Tyro]

I really enjoy Scrabble, but it has nothing to do with RPGs either.

Well put.

[longbowrocks]

I figured "like some other Fourth Editions I could mention" meant D&D, but that's harsh. Were you at least alright with 3.5?

[Tyro]

I figured "like some other Fourth Editions I could mention" meant D&D, but that's harsh. Were you at least alright with 3.5?

3.5 was nice, but to really work you had to houserule a bunch and ban or houserule a whole bunch of splatbooks. Major power creep + an inherently flawed magic system turned the game into rocket launcher tag around level 12.

[longbowrocks]

Dang, I'm curious about the flaws in the magic system, since I never joined a real community while playing D&D. I guess this isn't the place to ask though.

As for rocket launcher tag around level 12. Maybe, but level 20 was the really funny stuff.

[Fortinbras]

I figured "like some other Fourth Editions I could mention" meant D&D, but that's harsh. Were you at least alright with 3.5?

Mechanical Disconnect.

While I am more of an OSR kind of guy, I don't like to get bogged down in the great Editions Wars. I'll play just about anything.
4E D&D, however, isn't a role playing game, it's a miniatures game, and that's fine. I like Warhammer and other miniatures games plenty. If your game cannot be played without miniatures, it's not a roleplaying game. It's a war game.
That's why I like Shadowrun, it is a game that can be played entirely in your head, has it's base in a flesh and blood world and where the interactions are the star. It's a game in which you are playing a role and not a stat or a tiny piece of pewter.
Most experienced Shadowrunner talk of their character's exploits and craziness and wacky things they did to get out of an impossible situation. Most miniatures gamers talk about their character's magic items or treasure hoards.
Nothing wrong with either, but my players and I far prefer the latter.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Mechanical Disconnect.

While I am more of an OSR kind of guy, I don't like to get bogged down in the great Editions Wars. I'll play just about anything.
4E D&D, however, isn't a role playing game, it's a miniatures game, and that's fine. I like Warhammer and other miniatures games plenty. If your game cannot be played without miniatures, it's not a roleplaying game. It's a war game.
That's why I like Shadowrun, it is a game that can be played entirely in your head, has it's base in a flesh and blood world and where the interactions are the star. It's a game in which you are playing a role and not a stat or a tiny piece of pewter.
Most experienced Shadowrunner talk of their character's exploits and craziness and wacky things they did to get out of an impossible situation. Most miniatures gamers talk about their character's magic items or treasure hoards.
Nothing wrong with either, but my players and I far prefer the latter.

The Former Maybe? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

If the RAW makes no sense in relation to how the same thing works in Real Life, that's a good sign that the RAW is broken, no?



-k

[Yerameyahu]

It depends. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Sometimes it's just game-ification, abstraction, etc.