Broken Rules., Or where RAW just fails. Options

[Fortinbras]

I take "broken" to mean "does not work as written". Most broken rules can be fixed with a little common sense, but that doesn't mean the rule isn't broken. I will say that I do not include rules that work, but I don't like, in this category.

See, when I hear people say "the Shadowrun rules are broken", all I can think is to say "Fine. If Shadowrun is unplayable, then don't play it. Write up your own system, publish it and let people spend time picking it apart and tell you how it's broken."
It's just a term that get's under my skin. Like when people use the word "literally" wrong.
It caught on because it's inflammatory, but that's the same thing I don't like about it. Besides, most people on Dumpshock claim that every single aspect of the game is "broken" in some way. The Matrix rules are broken, the Combat rules are broken, the Magic rules are broken, the Falling rules are broken...etc.
For such a broken and unplayable system, people here sure do play it a lot.

Yes, ideally rules should be linked to the game world, but rules should ALSO work by themselves.

Rules need to work in and of themselves, even before you apply any external world or common sense factors.

I agree completely. I'm not saying rules don't need to work as stand alones because they can be fixed. That's lazy writing. I'm saying that a rule which has no connection to world is equally wrong. I think you're saying that, too.
However, some folks fixing of rules takes them so into the realm of grognard capture in trying to make all the rules balanced and even, that they forget the rules represent a real thing. This turns role playing games into board games.
But, yes. A rule that doesn't work is a rule that doesn't work. Forcing your audience to fix it for you is a haphazard attempt at best.

[longbowrocks]

Not necessarily broken, but I did find a typo in Augmentation page 114:
"Etchers
Etchers are used to temporarily or permanemtly inscribe a
metallic pattern on the subject’s bones or cartilages."
Had an 'm' instead of an 'n'. Maybe they'll fix it if they release arrata for that book.

[Stahlseele]

Hmm, etchers would make the Bone Cage a useable thing . .

[longbowrocks]

Hmm, etchers would make the Bone Cage a useable thing . .

I searched all the likely books, but no dice. what/where is the bone cage?

[KarmaInferno]

Had an 'm' instead of an 'n'. Maybe they'll fix it if they release arrata for that book.

This amuses me.





-k

[longbowrocks]

Oh god I didn't. Maybe I should wait till later to post more. At the moment I'm seeing double out of my left eye and my right eye hurts like a frequency of 16k. Sleeping awkwardly does that.

[longbowrocks]

Ok. Gave myself a break.

Hella broken rule here:
Has anyone else noticed that astral hazing is a NEGATIVE quality?
I would consider it a positive quality even if the GM forced me to take uncouth with it, and killed my character every other meet.

[Yerameyahu]

Yup. It has pretty major downsides, but can be useful. If you're getting more benefit from it than penalties, the GM should address that issue. It's a general rule.

[longbowrocks]

If my GM would let us use metagenetics, I would just take astral hazing as a freebie. Not a negative since it's so awesome, but not a positive since he'd find a way to make it feel like a negative.

[Yerameyahu]

It's really only awesome in these anti-mage scenarios. The practical consequences of living like that would be very bad.

[longbowrocks]

I don't see any direct consequences. Only astrally perceiving characters can detect my aura right?

It doesn't even say that I'm naturally depressed, even though the haze feeds off my darker emotions.

I guess I could take the vindictive negative quality to go with this, and play a depressed/suicidal character.
team mate:"what are you doing?"
me:"I've been talking to this tree. It hates me."

team mate:"so, does anyone have some ideas for how to get the data?"
me:"I'd make a suggestion, but you wouldn't listen. No one ever does."

me:"I've calculated our chances of survival, but I think I'm the only one who'll be pleased."

me:"Mediocrity is like a lollipop to me. I licked once and sucked forever."

me:"I'm more useless than boobs on a nun."

[Yerameyahu]

You're not being very creative. Magic is a normal, if rare, aspect of the Sixth World. You're the equivalent of walking radioactive waste, a human car alarm that never turns off, and a powerful radio jammer. No, it's not crippling, and you do gain some measure of protection, but it's like fending off a mugger by rubbing yourself with dog crap… you just can never take a shower. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (I swear I read about that once.)

[longbowrocks]

You're not being very creative.

In my interpretation of the quality, or in my execution of roleplaying a depressed character? There's little in this world that is more creative than humor. In fact, the only thing I can think of that trumps humor is creation itself.

You're the equivalent of walking radioactive waste, a human car alarm that never turns off, and a powerful radio jammer.

But only to astrally perceiving characters right?

[Yerameyahu]

Of course. That's slightly better than being deafening to only hearing characters, I guess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Astral security is a pretty standard thing, and you're a sore thumb. As a middling SURGE quality, it's pretty rare, so you're conspicuous *and* one of only a few. If you were hoping to have healing, buffing, etc., you're pretty well out of luck. So, yes, it's in some ways less bad than reeking of rotten eggs all the time, or emitting blinding light. It's still pretty bad.

[Sephiroth]

You'll also instill a small but unsettling feeling in those around you, even mundanes, if the letter to Celedyr in Augmentation's CZ fluff is to be believed (though not as much as Nasty Vibe; however, Nasty Vibe would be a very appropriate choice to accompany Astral Hazing).

Which is to say nothing of what will happen when your runner goes out for a night on the town and tries to party someplace where there's also a couple wagemages or other Awakened bystanders.

[longbowrocks]

You'll also instill a small but unsettling feeling in those around you, even mundanes, if the letter to Celedyr in Augmentation's CZ fluff is to be believed (though not as much as Nasty Vibe; however, Nasty Vibe would be a very appropriate choice to accompany Astral Hazing).

Which is to say nothing of what will happen when your runner goes out for a night on the town and tries to party someplace where there's also a couple wagemages or other Awakened bystanders.

This sounds about right. Astral hazing has that emotion thing about it, so I imagine mundanes could feel a slight chill as well.

The thing is, I can see this ability making me sympathetic towards mages if I were born with it, but I' d prefer to play a character who dislikes mages, even hunts them (aside from mages in my party). I just don't see how making the average mage effectively mundane would make me hate them.

I'm also curious how Llofwyr would have reacted to me in that last session if I had astral hazing.

[Yerameyahu]

I dunno what this has to do with anything. Hate, love, the point is that you're radioactive. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And what's this 'mages in my party' nonsense? You won't be running with anyone awakened, unless your Essence is sub-1 and they're careful about where they stand.

… why would you ever be in the presence of Mr. S-K? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Udoshi]

All attacks do net hits damage. Yes, they have a base as well.

Speaking of broken rules, explosive weapons don't do net hits to damage anymore.

That is, they broke everything with the Anniversary scatter rules. (they suck use 4th's)

[longbowrocks]

I'll be careful about where I stand. Besides, the other guys in our group don't know enough about the game to know what astral hazing entails, aside from the modifier. Heck, our GM had to explain to our mage last run, that he should be rolling body + armor when he gets hit.

As for S-K. They offered us more benefits if we came under their wing, and we accepted. Our GM is generally pretty good about keeping characters that should not be statted out of sight, but this run he played with something new by having us meet Llofwyr personally. Unfortunately, he gave the impression that he would resort to plot excuse rather than actual combat if I pulled the "negative quality: combat monster" card.

[Yerameyahu]

That's pretty far out of context, but yes, it's wrong regarding explosives. I meant stabbing and shooting, and I didn't think it'd be necessary to spell it out. I'll be more careful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I do think that the scatter rules (when they work) constitutes 'net hits to damage' for explosives, but it's obviously not the same as shooting and stabbing.

longbowrocks, I don't think the rules care about how stupid the *players* are (which, if they don't realize what BC 4 does to them, is 'very'). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) And the great dragon would end you, period. It's the law.

[longbowrocks]

longbowrocks, I don't think the rules care about how stupid the *players* are (which, if they don't realize what BC 4 does to them, is 'very').

Must count double for me since I didn't realize until just now that it sounded like I was calling my team stupid.
I meant that they... Dabble. For most of the characters, we kind of had a big party where the player sat in front of the computer for half an hour choosing interesting looking items from lists in SR4chargen (this one?) while our GM made suggestions that they listened to, and I made suggestions that they ignored.
I actually had a similar experience, which led to my first rendition of the bow troll. The next day I glanced through the core book, quite literally said "wtf is this?!", and set about making a proper bow troll.

And the great dragon would end you, period. It's the law.

The law eh?
*Whew*, good thing I'm a shadowrunner! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Udoshi]

That's pretty far out of context, but yes, it's wrong regarding explosives. I meant stabbing and shooting, and I didn't think it'd be necessary to spell it out. I do think that the scatter rules (when they work) constitutes 'net hits to damage' for explosives, but it's obviously not the same as shooting and stabbing.

No, no, thats the thing I was trying to point out. Net hits for attacks that scatter now ONLY reduce scatter.

Previously, in 4th edition, they reduced scatter to 0, and THEN excess hits improve the damage.

In Anniversary, they reduce the vastly increased scatter to 0, and then extra hits do jack squat. This means that after a certain point in vehicle armor, a high explosive grenade landing next to a car will absolutely not be able to damage it. Without net hits to damage, a high enough armor will just cause it to *bonk* off.

High explosive grenades are DV10 AP-2, so anything with armor 12 just completely ignores them, and with massive scatter, anything with 10 or 11 is probably okay due to damage falloff. Funnily enough, this also means that most of the Tanks printed in War and Milspectech just laugh off anti-vehicle missiles. They literally don't have enough AP or DV to harm them.

I mean, you'd -expect- a grenade to wreck a vehicle or drone, but nope. Doesn't work like that anymore.

Hence my suggestion to just use the previous editions scatter rules.

Sorry for the tangent, hope that explains stuff.

[longbowrocks]

Don't rockets have 3XDV against... Something? and grenades get 2X?
I thought it was barriers, but with this, I'm starting to suspect it's vehicles too. Let me check.

[Yerameyahu]

I wasn't aware that they *ever* increased explosive damage. I only meant that reducing scatter (to a min of 0) is effectively (that is, 'in a roundabout kinda way') increasing DV (because it's not reduced by blast distance). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You honestly don't have to worry about this, because scatter is so high in SR4A that you won't get to 0 anyway. (Heh, I exaggerate, because Airburst Link is stupid-good.) We did just have a big discussion last month about rockets being useless… must've been a different thread.

Definitely not vehicles. Explosives do 2x to barriers. You've *gotta* go read the rules, longbowrocks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[longbowrocks]

Yep. Read the rules and found it. If anyone takes something away from this, it's to trust their first guess and not their second.
explosives 2X
AV rockets/missiles 3X

Only against barriers, not vehicles.

Grenades should count as explosives since there's no other entry in the table for them.

And last but not least, airburst is pretty dang good, but the reduction to 1d6 scatter was an error and has been changed to 2d6.

Pretty good considering 8 weeks since I first heard of shadowrun, 4 weeks of dumpshock (I didn't use my account for 3 weeks since I had no privileges), and never having used any sort of explosive in-game before.