Broken Rules., Or where RAW just fails. Options

[Yerameyahu]

In no sense do those simulate astral sight.

[longbowrocks]

How?
The makeup shifts physical color in the presence of astral beings, or due to local mana fluctuations.
Airborne FAB I can be used to track an astral being's location.
Airborne FAB II not only allows you to see movement of astral forms, but also impedes their movement to near-manageable levels, and gives astrally perceiving characters a difficult time.

If you're talking about assensing, I feel the big issue is more being able to tell where people are, rather than knowing everything about them (although that can be nice too).

[Yerameyahu]

It's the difference between having thermographic vision, and carrying a mood ring. Astral perception does so much more than just let you know where spirits are (which is worthless).

Yes, I'm talking about Assensing, but also just *seeing* people (and magic). It's thermo that thermal smoke doesn't affect, it beats invisibility and (largely) infiltration, and many other fun uses. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's not the single be-all vision, but it's pretty handy, and you can't buy it.

[Ascalaphus]

Ascalaphus, I got the threads mixed up. The other thread was specifically asking 'do awakened characters beat mundanes (with enough karma)?', so it *does* matter if they can do it at one role.

It always gets messy with forking threads.

Anyway, I don't think it matters if a mage can outshine one role - that just becomes his role in the team. A MageFace is the Face of the party? Fine. If noone else was playing the Face, who minds if the Mage does the Face job with Magic?

It's bad if the Mage steals the spotlight, not if he just gets his due share of spotlight for doing one of the team roles.

[longbowrocks]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought astral perception boiled down to three things:

• assensing, which allows you find out some things you shouldn't be able to with magic (for example, whether someone is a technomancer). As for cyberware, at best, it should only allow you to detect cyberware by the fact that you can't detect any aura/life force where organic tissue should be.
• detecting astral presences.
• screwing over any mundanes who wanted to be stealthy by detecting life force (which conveniently enough is automatic no matter how much the mundane reduces his essence) instead of light in the visible spectrum.

Also, aren't spirits, magic, auras, and mana fluctuations all either disturbances in the mana flow, or concentrations of mana?

[Yerameyahu]

Sure, Ascalaphus, but that wasn't the question. 'Does he?', not 'is it bad if he?'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I forgot where I was, which is why I responded the way I did.

longbowrocks, … yes? You say that like those aren't awesome. (Assensing specifically can detect cyberware—doesn't matter how—, but it's not easy with good 'ware.) Personally, 'detecting astral presences' is the least important by far (especially if you can't do anything about it). I'd pay 15 BP for that (plus the other great tricks it gives), gladly accepting that I'd have to spend a little karma to offset 'ware. No, it's not for *all* characters… who said it was?

[longbowrocks]

it beats invisibility and (largely) infiltration

How does it ever not beat infiltration?
*simple action to switch perception to astral*
"Hey look guys! There's an aura on the perimeter of our compound. Physically he would reduce my dice pool to perceive him into the negatives, but since I'm perceiving astrally I don't even need to make a check lol."

[Yerameyahu]

There are threads (and a section in the FAQ) about that. Basically, infiltration also involves hiding behind stuff. Astral perception doesn't penetrate stuff. But yes, it's basically awesome for that, and that's a big deal in Shadowrun.

So, besides that, for your 'cheap' 15BP you also get the ability to bind weapon foci (handy for some characters), and a little magic defense (Counterspelling, as Brazilian_Shinobi mentioned), plus Projection (if you're just dying to fly through the wall and scout). Astral Sight at 5 BP is overpriced, but Magician at 15 BP (or Mysad, minus Projection, plus 1 PP) is very cheap. That's why there's the disclaimer. Or Adept (5BP), one free PP for anyone who didn't already want cyber. Not everyone does.

[longbowrocks]

You say that like those aren't awesome.

Nah, just making sure. We're frequently on a different page, especially concerning magic since I'm still reading up on it.

My main point was this:
"Also, aren't spirits, magic, auras, and mana fluctuations all either disturbances in the mana flow, or concentrations of mana?"

The reason being that the methods I suggested work by detecting mana irregularities. If they can detect the large one of a spirit (although notice the size of the spirit you may detect is never specified), then by extension, they can detect the small disturbance made by an aura, or the large disturbance of a spell.
Effectively, the astral may be physically perceived in this way (minus assensing of course).

[Yerameyahu]

Oh. … Nope. Manatech isn't advanced enough for that (yet). You don't even have an 'astral detector'. You have a generic 'hey, astral stuff!' litmus paper; no details, no meaurements, etc. So, you meant '*ineffectively*, the astral can be perceived this way.'

But all of that still falls under the umbrella of 'who cares, I can see through invisibility/dark/smoke, etc.!', plus the other bonuses I mentioned. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

FAB-II grenades are really expensive, and they only slow astrals down to 100m/turn anyway; other manatech is also expensive. None of them give the real benefits of the 'cheap' Magician quality the disclaimer is talking about.

[longbowrocks]

Astral Sight at 5 BP is overpriced, but Magician at 15 BP (or Mysad, minus Projection, plus 1 PP) is very cheap.

Ugh, don't get me started on how much I agree (although I look at it as more OP than cheap). I think we were looking at just the astral perception (and assensing) though. You can add Astral Combat too since astral sight comes with it as a complete package.

[Yerameyahu]

… That's what we were talking about! You asked 'why is there a disclaimer?' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[longbowrocks]

You have a generic 'hey, astral stuff!' litmus paper; no details, no meaurements, etc.

"Hey astral stuff!" is good enough to say "hey astral stuff where it shouldn't be!"
I'm not implying you could see the shape of an aura (if it has one), but it is astral stuff, so if you see disturbed FAB, it's either spell, spirit, aura, or flux.
Stronger things like spirits and spells could be ruled out (leaving only aura or flux) since the FAB description says that you could discern a silhouette using it.

But all of that still falls under the umbrella of 'who cares, I can see through invisibility/dark/smoke, etc.!', plus the other bonuses I mentioned. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I actually forget why I quoted this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[longbowrocks]

… That's what we were talking about! You asked 'why is there a disclaimer?' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Wait a sec, I know we switched gears somewhere in here.

Found it, I switched tracks after this:

wouldn't you pay 15 BP just for Astral Sight? (Maybe, it's kinda expensive.)

The original question was answered pretty well, so I got sidetracked.

[Yerameyahu]

Psh. I think you went off the rails, you nut. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) We were never talking about 'is manatech handy?'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) You asked why they tell the GM to be careful, and I said Astral Perception alone is worth it (exaggeration, yes). But it's certainly true that Astral Perception (*with* the ability to buy Magic points) + everything you also get is totally worth it.

[longbowrocks]

We can still fit this into broken rules if we argue about whether manatech can effectively simulate astral sight (not including assensing and astral combat). Opinions?

[Yerameyahu]

'No', and 'those provisos render the question meaningless'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Half of astral sight is seeing non-astral things.

[longbowrocks]

Half of astral sight is seeing non-astral things.

Kinda confused me there. I said 'no assensing' and 'no astral combat'.
Both of those only work while perceiving astrally (otherwise you're effectively blind).

[Yerameyahu]

You make my brain-meats hurt, longbowrocks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I wasn't talking about those. I was just saying that manatech doesn't address seeing non-astral things, which (IMO) is a major strength of astral sight… you know, like negating infiltration?

[longbowrocks]

You make my brain-meats hurt, longbowrocks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I wasn't talking about those. I was just saying that manatech doesn't address seeing non-astral things, which (IMO) is a major strength of astral sight… you know, like negating infiltration?

Doesn't astral sight negate infiltration by allowing you to see auras?

[Yerameyahu]

I'm suspicious of why you ask. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) It doesn't matter how it works.

How's this Broken Rules, though? You should make a thread about the state of manatech now that Attitude is out.

[longbowrocks]

*edit* moving this to a new thread as Yerameyahu suggested.

[KarmaInferno]

How does it ever not beat infiltration?
*simple action to switch perception to astral*
"Hey look guys! There's an aura on the perimeter of our compound. Physically he would reduce my dice pool to perceive him into the negatives, but since I'm perceiving astrally I don't even need to make a check lol."

Thermoptic-camouflaged drone infiltrator?

(yet another reason that Otomos are fecking scary - almost no astral presence)




-k

[longbowrocks]

Otomo? Is that a rigger who operates drones remotely?

[KarmaInferno]

It's the drone from Arsenal that looks exactly like a human, usually with a cyborg brain installed who is an elite level hacker. Expensive as hell, so if one gets sent out it's always for a DAMN good reason and probably has every bell and whistle a Megacorp can manage stuffed into it. Including, probably, five IPs, stupidly high dice pools, more armor than many military battle vehicles, and backup support. It has a big brother called the Tomino.

As a vehicle it shows up as well on the astral as the brick wall behind it. As in, not very much.



-k