Broken Rules., Or where RAW just fails. Options

[Yerameyahu]

That's true for any drone, though. You're stuck with mundane detection, or maybe special spells.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's the drone from Arsenal that looks exactly like a human, usually with a cyborg brain installed who is an elite level hacker. Expensive as hell, so if one gets sent out it's always for a DAMN good reason and probably has every bell and whistle a Megacorp can manage stuffed into it. Including, probably, five IPs, stupidly high dice pools, more armor than many military battle vehicles, and backup support. It has a big brother called the Tomino.

As a vehicle it shows up as well on the astral as the brick wall behind it. As in, not very much.



-k

I'd actually call the Tomino the Otomo's LITTLE brother, sice the Tomino is child sized. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Wrong.

That's the Akiyama. Although, Little A is faster, more expensive, and mostly better stats. :/ Wacky.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wrong.

That's the Akiyama. Although, Little A is faster, more expensive, and mostly better stats. :/ Wacky.

That's Right. Akiyama, Not Tomino. Not sure what I was thinking there. Apologies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
Thanks for setting me straight Yerameyahu. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

It's what we're here for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That, and verbal abuse!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's what we're here for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That, and verbal abuse!

Gotta love that Verbal Abuse... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[tagz]

It's the drone from Arsenal that looks exactly like a human, usually with a cyborg brain installed who is an elite level hacker. Expensive as hell, so if one gets sent out it's always for a DAMN good reason and probably has every bell and whistle a Megacorp can manage stuffed into it. Including, probably, five IPs, stupidly high dice pools, more armor than many military battle vehicles, and backup support. It has a big brother called the Tomino.

As a vehicle it shows up as well on the astral as the brick wall behind it. As in, not very much.



-k

Certainly won't get a bonus for contrast (like an aura against a shadow background) but depending on circomstances it might still be easier to see in Astral then with other vision types.. In full darkness natural vision is at a -6 while Astral takes no penalty. Shadow Clutter would be the same penalty to vision as cover I believe. Then take into account that it is a humaniod shape with movement... and no aura. If I were observing from the Astral I'd take note.

SM p112 on Shadows says that color, texture, smell, taste, sturdiness, tect, and images are difficult to dicern. "Seeing" shapes and contours, movement, and telling one shadow apart from the one next to it are not really effected. Getting detail on a shadow is hard, knowing it's general outline and that it's walking around isn't.

I'd take Astral over Normal for seeing an Otomo in the dark. Seeing a person with an aura would just be gravy with a few bonus dice for the aura contrast.

[Dakka Dakka]

Hmm, I just found another possibly broken rule: Indirect combat spells with touch range.
By RAW touch spells may need a melee touch attack to establish a proper connection and indirect combat spells are resolved as ranged attacks. So wouldn't then the caster need to first succeed at an opposed roll of AGI+Unarmed combat+2 vs. REA+Defensive Skill(Unarmed,any melee skill, dodge) andsucceed at an opposed roll of MAG+Spellcasting vs REA(+Counterspelling if available). And then the target gets to soak. Good luck with that.

Oh and sorry for the creation of a thread-cyberzombie.

[The Jopp]

AI's can only use SOME programs (They should be able to use ALL software)

AI's are slower on the matrix than a good tricked out hacker.

[The Jopp]

Hmm, I just found another possibly broken rule: Indirect combat spells with touch range.
By RAW touch spells may need a melee touch attack to establish a proper connection and indirect combat spells are resolved as ranged attacks. So wouldn't then the caster need to first succeed at an opposed roll of AGI+Unarmed combat+2 vs. REA+Defensive Skill(Unarmed,any melee skill, dodge) andsucceed at an opposed roll of MAG+Spellcasting vs REA(+Counterspelling if available). And then the target gets to soak. Good luck with that.

Oh and sorry for the creation of a thread-cyberzombie.

Wouldbt the spellcasting test be VS opponents Melee skill instead

[Dakka Dakka]

By RAW that's only for the touch attack and pitting the spellcasting test against the target's REA+melee skill/dodge would make that type of spell even worse:

Some spells, particularly health spells, require the caster to touch the intended target in order for the spell to work. To touch an unwilling target, the caster must make a normal unarmed attack as part of the Complex Action of spellcasting (see Melee Combat, p. 156). A tie on the Opposed Melee Test is sufficient for the caster to touch the target (p. 63).

Indirect Combat spells are treated like ranged combat attacks; the caster makes a Spellcasting + Magic Success Test versus the target’s Reaction.

There is no exception for touch range indirect combat spells.

[Aerospider]

I don't think it's a bad thing for spells to make poor melee combat weapons. For one thing it would be stepping on the adept's toes. For another it doesn't sound easy - mastering the mana, making deliberate physical contact with a melee opponent and channeling the spell through your arms at just the right moment sounds like a mammoth challenge in coordination and concentration.

But this does not make indirect spells untenable. If you really don't want to spend precious BPs on Unarmed Combat (Touch Spells) you've still got surprise. Save it for people who aren't expecting a fight or don't even know you're there. Hell, a troll enforcer might even let you get in a free hit just to show you how buff he is - then you sit back as he bursts into flame.

[Dakka Dakka]

I don't think it's a bad thing for spells to make poor melee combat weapons. For one thing it would be stepping on the adept's toes. For another it doesn't sound easy - mastering the mana, making deliberate physical contact with a melee opponent and channeling the spell through your arms at just the right moment sounds like a mammoth challenge in coordination and concentration.

Well it shouldn't be more difficult than any other touch range spell. Making contact is the same but the actual casting is only one opposed roll, except for indirect combat spells.

But this does not make indirect spells untenable. If you really don't want to spend precious BPs on Unarmed Combat (Touch Spells) you've still got surprise. Save it for people who aren't expecting a fight or don't even know you're there. Hell, a troll enforcer might even let you get in a free hit just to show you how buff he is - then you sit back as he bursts into flame.

I wonder, why would anyone learn a spell that is only useful in a few situations, if they could get one that is useful in many more.

Interestingly enough, there are no touch range indirect spells with P damage or an elemental effect.

[Neraph]

AI's can only use SOME programs (They should be able to use ALL software)

AI's are slower on the matrix than a good tricked out hacker.

Explain.

[Stahlseele]

AI's can only get 3 ini passes in the matrix, while a hacker can get to 4 i think.
Or 4 and 5 . . both Hackers and Technos can get one more IP than anybody else, but only for full VR stuff.

[Neraph]

Yes, AI can only have 3 IP. What about AI's only being able to use some programs (or rather, what programs can't they use that would be beneficial?)? And AI can actually end up having a higher (sometimes significantly so) Initiative than TM/Hackers, so that offsets their IP shortage in some instances. It becomes an issue of IP efficiency rather than quantity.

[Jhaiisiin]

Without the Pilot Origin quality, an AI can't use any autosofts ever, which jacks up your AI's capabilities as a rigger.

[The Jopp]

both Hackers and Technos can get one more IP than anybody else, but only for full VR stuff.

Which means that meat people are actually faster than an already matrix connected program.

[The Jopp]

Without the Pilot Origin quality, an AI can't use any autosofts ever, which jacks up your AI's capabilities as a rigger.

True, but they cannot use OTHER programs. In short you should be able to create an AI that emulates every skill with autosofts and software.

Autosofts = Physical Skills
Empathy Software = Social Skills (Since this is not an autosoft it is verboten)

Thats my main gripe, a program that is born on the matrix that cannot use certain software?

[Stahlseele]

Which means that meat people are actually faster than an already matrix connected program.

exactly

[phlapjack77]

AI's can only use SOME programs (They should be able to use ALL software)

True, but they cannot use OTHER programs. In short you should be able to create an AI that emulates every skill with autosofts and software.

Autosofts = Physical Skills
Empathy Software = Social Skills (Since this is not an autosoft it is verboten)

Thats my main gripe, a program that is born on the matrix that cannot use certain software?

Can you explain this? Why is empathy software verboten? Why can't AIs use other programs (or is that regarding autosofts / piloting origin)?

[The Jopp]

Can you explain this? Why is empathy software verboten? Why can't AIs use other programs (or is that regarding autosofts / piloting origin)?

AI's can only use Hacking/Computer software and Autosofts with Pilot Origin.

They cannot use Empathy software and some other programs because of RAW - Which cannot be RAI because that is just stupid. I'd love to play a newly born AI with no skills that ONLY have softwares as skills. Give him the basic inherent programs to manage spoofing to get access but any regular skills demands software.

Physical Skills: Autosofts
Social SKills: Empathy Software

You would essentially be able to emulate ALL skills with the limit that you need to update software and that they have a base skill level limit of about 4 at start.

[phlapjack77]

Cool - thanks for the reply. I found the relevant rules, Runners Companion p89.

"AIs may only load and directly use Common Use, Hacking, Knowsoft, and Agent Autosoft programs."

So this list leaves out the Empathy / *Recognition sensor software, along with linguasofts, datasofts, mapsofts, tutorsofts...even activesofts? I agree with you, this is silly - should've been errata'd (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I would also change the rules so that AIs can't take ANY physical skills, and would need something like autosofts / activesofts to emulate physical skill use.

[The Jopp]

Cool - thanks for the reply. I found the relevant rules, Runners Companion p89.

"AIs may only load and directly use Common Use, Hacking, Knowsoft, and Agent Autosoft programs."

So this list leaves out the Empathy / *Recognition sensor software, along with linguasofts, datasofts, mapsofts, tutorsofts...even activesofts? I agree with you, this is silly - should've been errata'd (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I would also change the rules so that AIs can't take ANY physical skills, and would need something like autosofts / activesofts to emulate physical skill use.

Exactly, for some reason a self learning adaptive program cannot use software that a mere meatbag can use. And yes, I would demand autosofts for interaction with the real world as they would be forced to use drones - I would say that an AI without Pilot Origin should be able to use autosofts, or at least Command software to order a drone to do the job for him.

[Neraph]

Exactly, for some reason a self learning adaptive program cannot use software that a mere meatbag can use. And yes, I would demand autosofts for interaction with the real world as they would be forced to use drones - I would say that an AI without Pilot Origin should be able to use autosofts, or at least Command software to order a drone to do the job for him.

They can do that part just fine.