Broken Rules., Or where RAW just fails. Options

[phlapjack77]

Can you provide a quote?

My current position is that technically no changes are necessary.

We both seem to be focusing on the "cannot be used in astral space" part and leaving off the other part of the rule.

4A, pg 186:
"Spirits are creatures native to the astral plane and metaplanes. They primarily exist as purely astral forms."

4A, pg 193 and 203:
"Only mana spells affect astral forms."

4A, pg 293:
"Powers may be either mana (M) or physical (P), just like spells (see p. 203). Mana powers do not affect nonliving targets, whereas physical powers cannot be used in astral space or affect astral forms."

If M/P/I are Physical powers, they can't affect spirits, which are astral forms. The spirit wants to gain a physical form, which would need M/P/I, which are Physical powers, which would require the spirit to already have a physical form, etc.

[Aerospider]

We both seem to be focusing on the "cannot be used in astral space" part and leaving off the other part of the rule.

4A, pg 186:
"Spirits are creatures native to the astral plane and metaplanes. They primarily exist as purely astral forms."

4A, pg 193 and 203:
"Only mana spells affect astral forms."

4A, pg 293:
"Powers may be either mana (M) or physical (P), just like spells (see p. 203). Mana powers do not affect nonliving targets, whereas physical powers cannot be used in astral space or affect astral forms."

If M/P/I are Physical powers, they can't affect spirits, which are astral forms. The spirit wants to gain a physical form, which would need M/P/I, which are Physical powers, which would require the spirit to already have a physical form, etc.

Ah yes, you're right. Materialisation and Inhabitation are Self range, so technically they don't work. Possession, however, is ok.

[Neraph]

I don't think any of that contradicts my argument.

As I said before, the M/P/I powers are not used in the astral plane but in the physical plane and they are not used on astral forms.

You're wrong. "Note that in order for a creature to use a power against a target, they must share the same "state:" astral or physical. Astral forms cannot affect physical targets, and vice versa (see the Astral World, p. 191)." Page 292, SR4A. The very next sentence vaguely contradicts it because it mentions spirits Materializing, however if you look at the sentence I just quoted, then Type on page 293, then Astral Form, Materialization, Possession, and Inhabitation, you get the very clear picture of this: since spirits come from the Metaplanes to the Astral and are Astral Forms, they cannot use nor be affected by Physical Powers or abilities. Therefore, since Materialization, Possession, and Inhabitation are all Physical, spirits cannot use them on themselves (since you cannot use a Physical Power on the Astral) and you cannot use it to "bridge the gap" since the spirit is not a viable target on the Physical plane, since it is on the Astral.

It just doesn't work as written.

EDIT:

Ah yes, you're right. Materialisation and Inhabitation are Self range, so technically they don't work. Possession, however, is ok.

No it doesn't, because of the same problem I detailed above. The spirit cannot use that Power on a target on the Physical Plane unless that target is dual-natured because Powers cannot transcend planes.

[IKerensky]

Broken rules in french version of SR4A :

"Spirit can use their power on any character moving into their line of sight."

I supposed that is because we have a child game like that in France but it is very stupid way to phrase it. So basically if you dont move a Spirit cant use any of his powers against you...

[Neraph]

Broken rules in french version of SR4A :

"Spirit can use their power on any character moving into their line of sight."

I supposed that is because we have a child game like that in France but it is very stupid way to phrase it. So basically if you dont move a Spirit cant use any of his powers against you...

They're all Boos!