Shadowrun's Dystopia: Active or Passive?, Is it Apple's interference or Microsoft's apathy? Options

[suoq]

Note: I don't view Shadowrun as a Dystopia. I find it a reflection of our times, no better, no worse. I graduated high school in 1984 (and found Shadowrun then a reflection of those times). My parents grew up in the Great Depression. Your mileage may vary.

That being said, assuming you find Shadowrun or parts of Shadowrun a dystopia, do you feel it's an active dystopia, where the actions of the powerful are deliberately trying to assert control over the masses or do you find it's a passive dystopia, where the powerful simply doesn't care about the masses.

Things to consider might be:
1) Do the powerful fear the masses?
2) Do the powerful react to the demands of the masses or do the powerful only appear to react to the demands of the masses or do the powerful clearly not care.
3) Do the masses fear the powerful?
4) Is that fear realistic?
5) Bread? Circuses?

[Yerameyahu]

No need for the inaccurate Apple/Microsoft analogy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[BookWyrm]

While SR1 does have that 'dystopian future' feel to it, I feel that the game (and thus the story) have evolved with the times.

Currently, I look at it as a combination of the factors you mention. The rich & powerful are, at best, mindful, and at worst, afraid of the unknown, when it comes to the 'masses' at large. Few, if any, have learned the lessons provided by such events as The Night of Rage, but know more recent history (the Crash 2.0, the emergence of technomancers & the subsequent paranoia) can repeat itself and impact not just those below, but just as much as those above.
The will of a small group, in the right position, can affect the larger masses, much like a snowball rolling downhill. But conversely, get enough outspoken minds together, and that ivory tower can topple just as easilly.

Both sides of the equation fear the other, simply because they don't trust it. And in the 6th World, trust is a far more rare commodity than on our world.

[jaellot]

I can agree with the reflection of our times bit, and moreso as time marches on. Not just the actual progress of technology, but with corporate interests over the actual needs of the masses, the greed. The governments getting cozy with big business. Even hate groups like Alamos and Humanis are a mirror image of our times; we have Neo-Nazis, KKK, Al-Qaeda, Westboro Baptists, Glen Beck...

And I don't know, the megalomaniacal control exhibited by Apple and Microsoft's "meh, you're gonna buy it anyway" seems a fitting comparison : )~

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* One of them has an OS that locks into 'Pirated Mode'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Microsoft, while possibly apathetic to user wishes, is certainly not passive. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Re: OP, the answer is certainly both. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) They control *and* don't care. It's a winning combination.

[Daylen]

we have Neo-Nazis, KKK, Al-Qaeda, Westboro Baptists, Glen Beck...

lets stay off the real life stuff that will lead to highly off topic subjects, which are highly opinionated.

[Daylen]

SR is arguably not a dystopia anymore since it is heading full steam for a post cyberpunk type setting.

[Method]

lets stay off the real life stuff that will lead to highly off topic subjects, which are highly opinionated.

Yeah, what Daylen said.

[Abschalten]

SR is arguably not a dystopia anymore since it is heading full steam for a post cyberpunk type setting.

It is as dystopian as the GM makes it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That said, the devs have apparently taken pains to ensure that every city in Shadowrun feels completely different from any other. Some of them definitely feel more dystopian than others. Hell, you could almost consider each city its own setting since they're so wildly different.

[Neurosis]

It is as dystopian as the GM makes it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That said, the devs have apparently taken pains to ensure that every city in Shadowrun feels completely different from any other. Some of them definitely feel more dystopian than others. Hell, you could almost consider each city its own setting since they're so wildly different.

Chicago. Do not go there. Reason. Ibid. Just don't.

[Abschalten]

Chicago. Do not go there. Reason. Ibid. Just don't.

With that sort of statement, there's a story behind it I'm just dying to hear. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Antonius Block]

Am I alone in thinking a world where advertisements are literally in-your-face is pretty distopian, in a Paul Verhoeven flick sort of way? Though I suppose that might be a reflection of our times. When Apple mandates that we all get iPhones implanted in our skulls we'll know the worlds are really beginning to converge.

I think the world of Shadowrun is one point in an array of possibilities where global capitalism and extreme urbanization can take us. Out of all possibilities, I probably wouldn't consider it one of the better ones, but I don't think that's because of any malevolent intent on the part of the Big Players. Megacorps might screw the masses, but only because they're concerned with their bottom line. The urban poor might erupt into violence, but again, those in control won't be concerned unless its a threat to their power. I think it's sort of a wild, state-of-nature environment, and the megacorps care about the masses the way a predator might care about its prey. If you want to talk about other powerful players like dragons, on the other hand...

Also, there are plenty of dystopian elements in Shadowrun that are unrelated to power struggles: for example the prevalance of beings that want to separate the everyday Joe from his insides (organleggers, ghouls, Shedim...).

[nezumi]

I don't think you can categorize it in just one area or the other. It's both (or more specifically, it is whatever is most profitable at the moment). The bulk of people will view the bulk of dystopic attributes as passive, but that's just because it's happening to someone else.

[Saint Sithney]

Historically, Seattle had a psychotic thrill-kill gang on nearly every block and on every major road.

I don't see GMs run that way much anymore. Enclaves are pouring out onto the streets now, and cops are willing and able to provide law an order.

I miss the bad old days when it was like New York in The Warriors. A bunch of crazy assholes ruling the night and running from/fighting the cops. That was fun.

[Ascalaphus]

Historically, Seattle had a psychotic thrill-kill gang on nearly every block and on every major road.

I don't see GMs run that way much anymore. Enclaves are pouring out onto the streets now, and cops are willing and able to provide law an order.

I miss the bad old days when it was like New York in The Warriors. A bunch of crazy assholes ruling the night and running from/fighting the cops. That was fun.

QFT.

[Cheops]

I'm also pretty put off by the Crash 2.0 and how it destroyed the dystopia completely in the UCAS. With everyone being offered a SIN amnesty that means the only SINless are by choice or the mentally/physically incapacitated. It's a dystopia because the poor chose it to be a dystopia -- not because the rich decided to make it so. Not dystopic in my book.

[Yerameyahu]

Are you saying having a super-all-inclusive tracking ID is the opposite of dystopia? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

I'm also pretty put off by the Crash 2.0 and how it destroyed the dystopia completely in the UCAS. With everyone being offered a SIN amnesty that means the only SINless are by choice or the mentally/physically incapacitated. It's a dystopia because the poor chose it to be a dystopia -- not because the rich decided to make it so. Not dystopic in my book.

Yeah, because it was so easy to get to the SIN Registration Halls during the riots and panic and such. Especially when you're SINless and no longer have access to your News Account. Or your 'Trid, for that matter because you've been locked out of your house due by the very security systems you bought. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I'm willing to bet the Policlubs were right outside the SIN Registration Halls, making sure "The Right People" got SINs, and "The Wrong People" stayed in the gutter where they belonged, too.

That said, yeah, I'm betting it still wasn't easy to get one, and the Registration Process was probably brutal. But, compared to living on the streets, or finding out that your criminal record was crashed and burned totally... Good time to get out of the Shadows.

Things to consider might be:
1) Do the powerful fear the masses?
2) Do the powerful react to the demands of the masses or do the powerful only appear to react to the demands of the masses or do the powerful clearly not care.
3) Do the masses fear the powerful?
4) Is that fear realistic?
5) Bread? Circuses?

1: Yes, but not as much as they have in previous times. "Sure, they have numbers, but my security has belt-fed heavy machine guns. Just put it on the news that they're Terrorists or Anarchists or whatever hot button to push and you're golden."

2: The powerful react to the demands on the masses because the masses are consumers. Other than that, appearance only. But they're really good at spin and propaganda, so that appearance is almost like reacting to the demands, only without having to actually do it.

3: Yes and no. The SINless, sure. They're finding what little support they had from society crumbling around them due to new technology running rampant and totally out of control.

The SINners, they fear what they're told to fear. Unless they're one of the few Sheeple that actually think about things. But that's why they're not getting promoted and so on.

4: Yes and yes.

5: Urban Brawl, Desert Wars, Formula-1 with Machine Guns, belly filling Food-Like Products.

[Ascalaphus]

Things to consider might be:
1) Do the powerful fear the masses?
2) Do the powerful react to the demands of the masses or do the powerful only appear to react to the demands of the masses or do the powerful clearly not care.
3) Do the masses fear the powerful?
4) Is that fear realistic?
5) Bread? Circuses?

My dystopia is trying to turn more Pink-Mohawk. The news from Starship Troopers (movie) mixed with Snow Crash.

Horrible accidents and crimes happen all the time, to normal people; if a plan crashes due to a widespread technical flaw, instead of making sure it couldn't happen again, the corporation just increases PR.
The "responsible" people prefer to cover up or distract from their enormities, rather than actually take responsibility and deal with them. This also means that the corporations themselves are full of corruption and mismanagement, which gives the SINless breathing room and a way to illegally tap off power and such.

The SINless are tolerated; nay, the government actively (but unofficially) supports their existence. They don't have to pay welfare to the SINless, but the corporations can still sell to them. Poor people (= people who pay less taxes than they cost the government in benefits) are in real danger of having their SIN "accidentally" deleted.

Corporations have no scruples against selling to the SINless; credsticks aren't on the way out in my campaign. But the SINless do go to different stores (somewhat more under the table affiliates of the big corps). Gotta have class differences.

Industry has progressed due to robotization and mass production. Production is efficient and requires very little human labor. For unschooled people, there is very little legal employment. Educated people can artificially generate jobs, especially in the marketing of useless products, bureaucracy and as lawyers.

Police isn't there to provide justice or even safety to the poor; they're there to keep the riff-raff from causing trouble in good neighborhoods. As long as the Barrens aren't spilling out, KE/LS don't care what happens there; no paying customers in the Barrens.

There are basically five social classes:
- Elite (major shareholders, higher-ups in mage fraternities, dragons, mob bosses etc.) - these people live well and are protected from random accidents.
They constitute around 1% of society.

- "National" Citizens: a combination of some poor but mostly middle class people. They have civil rights, but lack the wealth and connections to be really safe. They're kept distracted with bread and circuses on the one hand, and the fear of becoming SINless on the other. They're the backbone of society, serving as qualified professionals (doctors, army, civil service, sub-A corporation owners, talismongers, club proprietors and so forth), they have to work long hard days and they're only moderately rewarded for their efforts; they're one or two bad accidents away from ruin. Still, they have a measure of freedom that the Sararimen lack.
They constitute about 30% of the population.

- Sararimen: people who work for extraterritorial corporations and have corporate citizenship. Although most corporations make their drones work hard, they are possessive of their drones. Only the corporation is allowed to mess with them. They lack freedom, but have security from outside threats. It needs to be noted that many corporations are territorial and possessive enough that they may go on protecting their drones even when it's not strictly profitable.
In the end, this class of people are a minority in society, making up around 19%

- Trash People: these are almost all SINless. Drug addicts, illiterate Barrens natives. They have close to nothing to offer society; no legitimate source of income. They could provide a reservoir of manpower, but they're mostly obsolete because they were replaced by automatic/robot production methods. Simply genociding the whole lot isn't quite socially acceptable, although occasional purges happen. The problem with "kill the poor" is that there will always be more of them. Nutrisoy is provided for them to keep them docile. They're also kept docile with "accidental" spills of dangerous chemicals in their zones. They constitute a big 35% of society.

- Outsiders: people who've turned away from "The System". Neo-tribals, gangs, communes and other stranger groups. Often SINless, but they tend to have allies to provide strength in numbers. This group is pretty big too, and overlaps with Trash People, sometimes preying on them. Shadowrunners tend to fall into this category, as do a lot of mages. This whole group is the most pink-mohawk of society, and their vitality makes them "cool" and useful to the fashion industry. They're not necessarily poor. They fill up the remaining 15% of society.

[Manunancy]

Horrible accidents and crimes happen all the time, to normal people; if a plan crashes due to a widespread technical flaw, instead of making sure it couldn't happen again, the corporation just increases PR.
The "responsible" people prefer to cover up or distract from their enormities, rather than actually take responsibility and deal with them. This also means that the corporations themselves are full of corruption and mismanagement, which gives the SINless breathing room and a way to illegally tap off power and such.

In my opinion, there's at least some cost/benefit analysis involved in the 'fix it or bury it' answer to problems. Even if you're pumping your PR, if the problem is blatant enough it will still pop out. Probably with some help from competition too, who have a vested intrested in making sure your screwups get as much media attention as possible. And will probably not-so-subtly point the finger at your coverup effort to make you look even worse.
Sure they probably have some skeletons own their own for you to drag out of their closets and into the open as a revenge, but too much of that and you'll convince the drones to bring back to bad old days of government oversight, and before you know it you're slipping into communism... So there's probably an informal consensus that real problems get fixed.

Though I entirely agree that a problem which can be quietly slipped under the rug will, rather than even attempting to fix it.

[CanRay]

In my opinion, there's at least some cost/benefit analysis involved in the 'fix it or bury it' answer to problems.

Narrator: "A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one." - Fight Club

[Ascalaphus]

Yeah, sometimes a scandal does break loose, but often it doesn't. In fact, it's not unheard of for people to suddenly lose their SIN and get expelled from their homes due to "bureaucratic error", or for a sudden chemical spill to kill dozens, all without any scandal happening. I like my setting wild, dangerous and slightly Kafkaesque.

[Daylen]

Narrator: "A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one." - Fight Club

Are you so nonconformist that you're going to conform?

[Martin_DeVries_I...]

I'm also pretty put off by the Crash 2.0 and how it destroyed the dystopia completely in the UCAS. With everyone being offered a SIN amnesty that means the only SINless are by choice or the mentally/physically incapacitated. It's a dystopia because the poor chose it to be a dystopia -- not because the rich decided to make it so. Not dystopic in my book.

People choosing to be powerless and voiceless isn't dystopian?

[Glyph]

I think Shadowrun has enough of a mix of oppressors that it can be both an active distopia and a passive one. On the one hand, you can be a cog in the machine that gets ground up by the uncaring wheels of beauracracy. On the other hand, there are also people out to exploit their fellow metahumans every way that they can.

I think Shadowrun sometimes teeters on the verge of being too distopian. Without some rays of hope (Mothers of Metahumans, etc.), you run the risk of either players that stop caring and merely play jaded, amoral scumbags, or players that wallow in tiresome wangst.